Sharing is Caring...unless it is with Asia

General Discussion
21

There are some extrodinary talent on this group…  Some really fine craftsmen…

But nothing we/they do hasn’t been done before… Some guys have had the privelidge to learn from their idols…

The rest of us here just learn what we can from them… Is it that much different in China and such??

I’m working on some twinzer kite-boards… Everything I’ve learned about twinzers has come from input from builders on this group and others… Applying this shared knowledge to a kite -surfboard is  new and exciting,  but it’s not  a concept that I can claim ownership of…

 Sharing ideas, so you can manipulate and adapt them to other applications is a good thing in my book… Otherwise, we come to a stand still…

 Be humble, accept  critical evaluation of what you build, and expand on the advice and knowledge of others…

 

22

The other thing that this discussion brings to mind is to do with intrinsic motivation…

Peer recognition is cited as the most valuable motivating reward.

People share things, just like here on Sways, to get recognition for what they know or do.

Kinda egotistical in a way, but thats humans, I do it myself. Except i’m not sure i’ve impressed anyone yet :slight_smile:

Either you share for extrinsic (financial) reward, or intrinsic reward.

Even Mother Teresa did what she did because it made her feel good.

23

Many may not agree with me however I find the opposite is happening. My custom orders are keeping me alive. If your customer base are real surfers you will be fine. There is no such thing as one size fits all. I get guy's that want 1/8" less tail rocker, 4" tail block 1/4" concave starting 30" from the tail on a 6'0" with glass on fins with an extra deck patch just under his stance. The order is made on Monday and Thursday I call him to pick it up on his lunch break on Friday before the Week-end. They gladly pay full price and no bro deals are expected. It's a matter of repect. As long as we tailor make boards for real surfers we have nothing to worry about. There have been knock off golf clubs for years however when I play with real golfers they all have PINGs, Tayor Made or some elite brand made in the US. Pings are still made in Arizona. I have a set and love them. They are three times as much as imported knock offs. However they are fitted to my game. Just like boards, some of my customers are not Pro however get a new board every month. Some every 3 months.

If your making retail boards you have no choice but to go to China. There is no way to complete. Inovation is still alive and well and needs to be channeled in the custom direction. We will continue to build the best boards we possibly can for our customers. As far as sharing. We can do that as long as we don't give the farm away in the process. PM's are cool for sharing with the right mates. Sharing trade methods is no big deal. Trade Secretes are best keep under wraps until you make some kind of benefit from it. It's not a easy way to make a living so I understand Feraldave's postion. The 50 boards a week for the local surf shops is long gone. Hopefully most of you have switch your business model?

 

Any one person can not make every surfboard on the planet. There's plenty of work for all of us.

Happy Building,

Surfding

I have Aussie's from Byron Bay getting my boards: 4 boards in 4 weeks! Come on Yank's break out your wallets and build your quivers. I love the way Aussie's put an importance on surfing as it should be! 


24

I remember a long time ago - an elder (a friend's dad) engineer telling me a story about the way it really is. 

A US company sent a needle to Japan with a hole drilled through it.  They sent it back with a hole drilled through it.... lengthwise.

Don't attempt to flatter yourselves with the latest thing.  I guarantee it's old hat.  I also guarantee it's already being done cheaper and faster overseas.

If not, they've determined it's not cost effective.

25

I'll dig myself a little deeper hole by saying, that although I work for one of those company's in their own Thailand facility (not many company's can actually make that claim), we are doing stuff that nearly everyone here on swaylocks knows about. Hey, it started here if everyone remembers. I got this job through sways, so from my point of view sharing is good.

 

Although most here know how our boards are made, not many actually know how we do it in a production sense, the things we actually do every day on the shop floor which allow us to make them in production numbers. That's something I knew how to do, and maybe it's just the luck of the draw, but I don't have much competition for my job, unlike others. Actually no-one else applied for this job. I chose this path as a way to pay the bills and feed myself and my family.

 

I love making boards, have for years. I've shared info here, before and after I got this job. Problem is that there is certain info that company's are not willing to share, and that's a very typical company attitude. It's not information you guys don't already know, so I don't feel bad about that.

 

So, from my point of view, everything is available on the internet if you look hard enough, and mabe no one, or everyone, is sharing info with Asia, and everywhere else in the world. Look at it from a different perspective and perhaps Asia is the one not sharing info.  

 

One thing's for sure, they haven't captured the custom market and probably never will. Keep it up guys.

26

“The problem is that there are too many friggin people. People need work, and people love to surf, so neither of these can be stopped. " **BenjaminThompso**

 

If you live long enough your likely to add one more item to this list of what people want, need or love to do, and that's copulate, which often to their surprise, results in reproduction. In fact, I would suggest this be at the top of any list regarding what people want, need, or love to do – as a species, other activities tend to pale in their importance, aside from hungry, thirst and a little shelter.

Attempts have been made to locally control population, and some have had a limited success, but as a species, it's not likely to happen anytime soon. China's success has been limited at best and brutal for sure.

The species in general has tended towards 'ownership' as a primary economic driver, and the last time I checked, virtually everything physical of any value in our finite World is already owned by someone or some entity. Believe it or not, this [that everything is owned] is a very recent phenomenon – it was completed, wrapped up if you like, in the last century. Proprietary information was sure to follow.

A lot of the members of Swaylocks seem to be into pithy 'signature' phrases, here's one that's right up there with Wittgenstein's “The world is all that is the case”

“The truth is out there, the bullshit is what we tell ourselves and each other.”

I think it's Slavoj Zizek's, but I'm not sure it's his exact phrasing.

We think we know what we are, but we don't. This is not a matter of philosophy, but physiology, in particular, neurophysiology. There is big part of that 'we', something around 80% of the brain and neural network that literally controls our actions, and we are basically unaware of its motives and reasoning. All that brain power that you think you're not using, trust me it's being used by the real you and its manipulating the conscious you in both subtle and not so subtle ways.

In the end people (in general) can only be considered to be bound by the formal law structures they decide to adopt, or find imposed on them. And, again, historically, the precise structure and emphasis of any one of these structures is quite tentative and for the most part arbitrary... they're also fleeting, as nothing it seems is truly carved in stone.

The message is pretty clear. Do what you feel you need to do, and if it's within the law, you're cool. Anything else and expect to be surprised.

kc

27

G’day Ben, cheers for that rational opinion on global production and why our surf breaks are so crowded. I get disappointed with the anti-asian production sentiment on Swaylocks and also some of the negativity that results from longing for the “good old days”. I think what you are doing with researching flex is excellent and I hope the negativity doesn’t discourage you from posting.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/custom-or-production#comment-1344613

My opinion is we can’t turn back the clock and I like progress as long as it doesn’t trash the planet. Global production is here to stay and has been around a long time in other industries. It was less crowded in the old days, but the boards were awful and the wetsuits even worse. So improved equipment is a compensation for more people waking up to surfing being good fun and increasing the wave competition. I’m still stoked anyway.

I am sympathetic to the industry pros who want to keep some of their production techniques to themselves though. I think its an informal balance between sharing and keeping.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/cnc-order-fiasco?page=1#comment-1344611

 

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eloquently put KC! it appears to me that very little surfboard production technique is unique enough to be patent protected and of the techniques that are candidates very little gets patented so instead there are secrets and shared secrets which informally protect. I don’t see anything wrong with that, if a huge amount of effort was put into protecting then that would in itself divert energy away from true progress. Protection is part of progress, unless the inovator can stay in business then me the customer won’t get to enjoy.

However some of the industry pros here tell a customer not to buy something, this distorts the market and slows progress.

29

I agree.

 

 

I strongly disagree.  The greatest mistakes in history, Slavery, Ethnic Cleansing, Imperialism, Extinction of Species and soon to be Climate Change, were carried out by masses of law-abiding citizens.  In fact, the surest way to make a huge mistake is to assume that following the law makes you a good person…or assuming that if everyone is doing it, then it can’t be that bad.

There are some real issues that effect real people, and they should be considered.  It’s not a hypothetical American that lost his job to some guy in Hong Kong, he’s Crafty.  Or hypothetically, people can get Cancer in a PU foam operation.  That really happened at Clark and now that poison is being gleefully processed across the border and overseas.

Of course there are positives to producing in Asia, but does it outweigh the negatives?  Secondly, does protecting information really improve the situation?  Maybe sharing information decreases the inequities found between us and Asia, which could be the solution, though it may take some time.

30

eh.

31

Eloquently put? Gee thanks,… for capturing my horrible grammar. Anyway, I’ve edited my original post, and in the future will deny responsibility for the  grammatical errors in the quote which you’ve posted, from wherever you got it… gee it’s already working… unless owning up to it provides an opportunity to copulate or to recieve cash (or neat stuff.)

Note: to Benjamin… ditto.

 

… but then again there’s no escaping it “the truth is out there, the bullshit is what you tell yourself, and others” … damn.

kc

32

Wheres Ambrose…?

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“Information Wants To Be Free. Information also wants to be expensive. … That tension will not go away.”- Stewart Brand

34

…what is all this sh-t about free info, etc?

the info was never free

most

basic education is not free

hig school is not free

Universities are not free

 

-China boards can t compete in custom orders because a surfer will not go to China and knock knock on a factory door and chat with the shaper (¿?¿?!!) or designer (more ¿?¿?!!)

also they don t have premium fiberglass, etc

and if they imports stuff the cost will rice too much to compete

 

 

 

35

look in ten years ya kids kids will be speaking asian languages and working for asian companys controlled by crime syndicates. thats reality.ill just go further bush until theres no bush left or im dead . which ever is first. my response to PC people spreading there pc virus on equality that describes western christian society as being wrong/evil  " fark off " if its so shit  and we are so mean and racist, why does everyone wanna come and live here.

ill tell you why because we are suckers and plenty of immigrants know it. we are so trusting that immigrants just take advantage of it and cash up on the charitable good will of westerners. come in spinner

its dog eat dog

our sharing humanitarian natures will be our downfall

if you wanna make money 9 times out of ten you have questionable morals. making money involves conning or lying at some point or stabbing someone in the back. thats my experience in life and nothing can change my opinion. i guess thats why im poor even tho i worked my whole life in a a billion dollar industry.

ive changed tho im happy to take a fools money (when i can be bothered) cuz you are only robbing from robbers

school teaches my kids that its all sweet and roses. when they get home i can show them reality on the internet.

 

36

 Rolltwenty posts & he could get a train wreek?? 





37

 

Strange, you must be the only one who is paying for Swaylocks.

Most info today is free or at least so cheap that the poorest people in the world can afford to obtain it.  It is happening because of collaboration, just like here on Swaylocks.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/clay_shirky_on_institutions_versus_collaboration.html
(I highly recommend watching the last two minutes, if you don’t have 20 mins)

Some people want to hold on to old world economic paradigms…dog eat dog…hierarchical social structures…isolationism.  You can live by those rules and achieve success by old world standards, but none of the most successful people today play by those rules.

 

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Doesn’t the Swaylocks site run on top of Drupal CMS, which is open source?

 

39

hi huie

there is no equality anyway

everyone has to leave the water just cuz some bald midget who surfs good turns up

wheres the equality in that

40

[quote="$1"]

Hey Crafty...

I have been screwed and burnt by the man like everyone before and after me.  Several years ago, I decided that I will not tolerate it anymore, and that I am the leader of my own destiny.  Yeah - it has been a rough ride, but since then I have no one to blame for my circumstances or my ability to provide but myself.   

[/quote]

Started doing that in 2003 after losing my job to China. The writting was on the wall since the mid 90s. Made a decision to bail before its too late. now Im self employed in an unrelated industry. There are pros and cons. I like change. I make much less, but Im employed and making a decent living with zero debt.

I have no regrets. I got a great education and liberated my parents from paying to keep a roof over my head in the process. Met my wife in college and made two wonderful kids. 

[quote="$1"]

You'll gain nothing but anger by focusing on society's natural progression towards grandiose levels of greed.  You can, however, carefully detach yourself from it. Face it - no one will ever be paid what they're actually worth (engineer who works his ass off vs. big-shot who's daddy founded the business but has no skills), and money is just the big green arrow pointing to that truth.

Good luck friend.  I very much do understand and appreciate your grief.  We're all victims and unwitting participators in this discouraging mess. 

[/quote]

I hope for the best but plan for the worst. This is one thing that was not taught to me and plan on passing to my children. I made mistakes, everybody makes them. But when you make them it should have the least amount of damage. Always have a plan B.

Thanks for your kind thoughts but Im not greiving. Im frustrated with how gloabilzation has impacted my chosen profession and the economy as a whole. The first company I worked for, kick ass biotech company, 2,500 employess, decades of production in my own community, recently closed its doors for good. A big multi-national bought them in 1995 and slowly chipped away at it piece by piece, each piece going either over the border or overseas, until there was nothing left here.  

The topic at hand was sharing of perhaps critical information with global competitors. My last job I was face to face with China everyday. I felt like I was teaching our competitors how to conduct business. It was not a good feeling. It sucked. Not to mention the lack of ethics I experienced. It really sucked. I wanted to be laid off! Got a nice severance and drove home that day bitter sweet.

I was sharing critical information with "strategic suppliers", ie global competitors, because that was my job and thats what I needed to do in order to keep it.

How ironic isnt it?

Its like you have a great paying job, and your company decides to bring in a new lower paying associate to work with you, your company wants you to train him, teach him the ropes, then after hes up to speed, you get canned and replaced by him. Except at least the new guy lives in your community and he's contributing to the local economy.

It doesnt bother me that others have a different opinion than mine. But I wanted to state my opinion based on being on the wrong side of the deal.