Spastic kicking when paddling for a wave - surfing’s own grand mal?

In the thread, “The role of buoyancy during paddle-in take-offs” I wrote the following,

“When you arch your back as you paddle for a wave, and then maybe arch it a little more as you continue, you shift your weight, or for purposes here, redistribute your mass. (Arching your back accomplishes some other things too; biomechanical and physiological. But for now, it’s the redistribution of mass that is of interest.)”

When catching a wave all sort of factors come into play. In the above, I made an assumption relating to body posture when paddling for a wave. (Yet another mea culpa moment.) It deals with two areas that aren’t discussed all that much, at least not on this forum – biomechanics and physiology. I’ve read precious little in both fields, but it seems that I’m not about to let that stop me.

It appears that we posses reflexes, or automatic responses, to the motion of our limbs. For example, yes breathing will increase when you run because of changes in blood chemistry, but it appears that the mere motion of your limbs will actually get you breathing faster, regardless of blood chemistry.

It could be a blood pressure thing, but it appears more likely to be neural thing. That is, the brain senses rhythmic limb motion via mechanoreceptors strategically placed in joints, tendons, etc. and signals are sent to increase breathing. Apparently, this kind of reflexive breathing is pretty strong for rhythmic leg motion (in humans), but it’s also there for arm motion. Maybe it’s some sort of evolutionary vestigial thing, a hang-over from the time our ancestors walked on all four.

The reflex can be actively suppressed, like when you make a quick dash, at least initially. Or when you start to paddle for a wave? My guess is that instinctually we shut down ventilation (breathing) temporarily in favor of a more mechanically rigid posture, one better able to handle force distribution. Arching your back would seem to also be a part of that instinct. Not that everyone arches their back, so maybe its not as hotwired in everyone to the same degree.

I don’t want to get off topic, but there’s a whole bunch of different kinds of paddlers out there. Two extremes come to mind: the oarsmen approach, the digger approach. The oarsmen approach makes those wide half circles with fairly straight arms, the digger tends to bend the arm at the elbow so that the hand literally moves under the board. There are mechanical differences between the two. Might make an interesting thread, well for some it might … like for the same people who enjoy reading threads like this one – or writing them.

But arching your back may do more than just prep you mechanically.

Not that the opportunity is going to come that often, but watch a five year who has really really got to pee. They jump around back arched, chin up, maybe holding their crouch. But if you haven’t any kids to torture, the next time you really really have to go, arch your back or hold up your chin and see if the sensation isn’t suppressed. Its not completely effective, but it seems to take the immediate edge off the sensation.

Suppressing the urge to pee during take-offs however is really not my point. (Though it might be a good idea.) It’s that certain body postures probably reflexively suspend a lot of other things going on in the body, that is, shut down or inhibit a lot of different neural pathways. (Sounds like I know what I’m talking about doesn’t it?) And perhaps potentiate, or clear the way for other types of neural connections or reflexes.

Here’s where I really get into trouble – if you arch your back while paddling for a wave, that reflex, that for some reason tells you to start kicking your legs will never gets to your legs. Kickers, you know, those guys who seem to start kicking when paddling for waves never seem to have their back arched – they always seem to be flat out prone. It’s as if that cacophony of neural activity in there brain when ‘going for it’ is let out the box – their own grand mal moment.

By the way, I haven’t said that kicking is futile when paddling for a wave (on a surfboard) but I’d love to read any arguments in its favor.

kc

Quote:
In the thread, “The role of buoyancy during paddle-in take-offs” I wrote the following,

[I]“

By the way, I haven’t said that kicking is futile when paddling for a wave (on a surfboard) but I’d love to read any arguments in its favor.

kc

Argument? Naw, why bother?

  1. A shark has it’s teeth inching closer to your feet.

  2. Seaweed

  3. Flush the piss from the suit.

  4. F$%Rkin leash, “stop wrappin round me ankle”

Ever try swimming freestyle without kicking? MUCH harder. If the back half of your body and legs are submerged, your feet are either drag producers or flippers. I learned that with a kickboard in swimming lessons. Any bit of propulsion that helps you stay in front of the peak until you’re caught or drop is useful. Even kicking with splashing is a net positive. Unless it’s some kid snaking you from 15 feet left of the peak you’re in place for.

Good Weed?

Arching your back releases pressure on your bladder.

Holding your breath locks up your diaphragm which is accompanied by tightening your abs. By immobilizing these two muscle groups you create a stronger core which allows your limbs to exert more force on your environment. Less of it is absorbed by your core.

As far as kicking goes, don’t kick on a longboard.

here I’ll say it: Kicking is useless for surfing.

Kicking during paddling is the same a keeping you legs spread apart when you paddle

Kicking during paddling is the same as dragging you feet off your rails during paddling

Kicking causes drag, your not adding any propulsion. The only way you could add propolousioion is if you lower half was completely submerged and off the end of the surfboard. i’ve seen that sight too.

  1. it’s a tell tale sign of a beginner surfer.

  2. It’s the fastest way to dent your ankles

  3. it’s the fastest way to dent your surfboard

  4. It’s the fastest way to draw attention

It’s better to keep your feet out of the water if possible. If you can’t keep your feet out of the water, keep them tight and streamline. Streamline, tight and a fluid stroke will out paddle a kicker any day.

If you’re gonna kick, you might as well also let out a roaring war cry too. :smiley:

So the suppressing the urge to pee part is not a direct neural suppression, but a passive mechanical consequence of arching your back? Makes sense, thanks.

The breath holding is also interesting - mechanically, and with respect to developing hypercapnia.

Until I started making it a point do so, I’m not sure I ever took a breath after getting up. Well maybe eventually, but not within the first five or so seconds. Which meant that together with the breath suppression during take-off, the anaerobic exercise, I was building up a real carbon dioxide load.

When I finally started to make sure I did [breath], I found that in general I was less hypercapnic and could handle getting held under better, and in a better state to paddle back out. I’m sure avoiding hypoxia played a role too.

These little tricks help a lot when winter is your season to surf - conservation and efficiency can pay big dividends in terms of time in the water.

Make that, the older you get conservation and …

kc

Not that the opportunity is going to come that often, but watch a five year who has really really got to pee. They jump around back arched, chin up, maybe holding their crouch.

By the way, I haven’t said that kicking is futile when paddling for a wave (on a surfboard) but I’d love to read any arguments in its favor.

kc


My 5-year old does indeed jump up and down and grab his ,er, crouch, but for me, when I have to pee, while surfing at least, a wisp of a smile just passes across my face…

Arching the back would set you up better for getting to the feet, but it will shift the contact point of your weight farther back on the board. Arching’s probably better for the back, overall, focusing the body’s strength around the pelvis.

I notice that sometimes I press my chin into the deck, I guess to push the nose down, and I’ll kick, instinctively, if I feel water wrapping around my legs (to reduce drag?)

But I’m kind of a spastic kook, and am pretty happy to even catch a wave at all, let alone get to my feet, so I’ll just give you bad examples.

Quote:

I notice that sometimes I press my chin into the deck, I guess to push the nose down, and I’ll kick, instinctively, if I feel water wrapping around my legs (to reduce drag?)

I pretty much do the same thing, allthough I don’t think I press my chin to the deck. While I’m paddling into position, I keep my back arched, then when paddling to get into the wave I’ll release my arched back to apply more pressure towards the nose of the board to get down the face. On a shortboard, I’ll kick if I need that little extra push to get into the wave. I’ve noticed days when I’m having trouble getting into waves, that I haven’t been kicking as much. If you watch pro shortboarders, most of them kick profusely when paddling into waves, so I don’t think the kook/beginner statements hold much merit. Also, have you seen Bethany Hamilton paddle - she kicks like crazy to make up for her lost arm (even when paddling out), and it obviously works for her.And yeah, I never kick while longboarding, that would hurt.

Cool, a topic I actually really know something about…

“yes breathing will increase when you run because of changes in blood chemistry, but it appears that the mere motion of your limbs will actually get you breathing faster, regardless of blood chemistry.”

Yes. Movements of the shoulder girdle can change the volume of the ribcage, ‘making’ you breathe. Blood chemistry is sensed faster than you think, but yes, hyperventilation can be suppressed.

The reason the kicks happen with a taut torso is simply for balance, like janklow said. With a more loose torso, the torso would be able to move about to balance out the movements of the arms while paddling. But hold your breath, clench your abdominal wall, and you have arms flailing that will twist that rigid torso right off the board if it wasn’t for the flailing legs balancing it out…

The kicking really isn’t doing much for forward propulsion, but it is keeping you on the board…

The having to pee thing, arching your back relieves pressure on the bladder, which by its distention is sending the ‘I have to pee’ signal. The pressure relief is because of the suspensory ligaments your internal organs are partially suspended by. They can be put into play more when you arch your back, ‘raising’ them off the bladder and relieving pressure. This will not work for long, as you have said…

JSS

Surfing and smiling go together… you’ll blend right in. However if you’re gonna take a dump in your suit, you might want to be a little more sensitive to facial expressions – you might reveal too much.

Anyway, whatever works… fun is all that matters in the end – for me at least … like having a five year old to torture (in the fun kind of way)… I envy you.

kc

If you really want to hold your breath or a while…hyperventilate beforehand. The sense that you are ‘out of breath’ is due to CO2 concentration in the blood. Hyperventilating will blow off that CO2, making you stay underwater longer without having the ‘I’m going to die’ feeling.

But…

You will get very little warning before you lose consciousness, so it is not recommended unless you have someone watching you…the only real warning you get is that you will start seeing in black and white for a bit, and then all black…your eyes need tons of oxygen, they are a good early warning system.

I didn’t see Keen addressing the bladder thing above, sorry for the redundancy…

JSS

I was not the one who said that, because I think, not to say know, that shortboarders with their lower bodies and legs truly submerged can propel themselves better by kicking and paddling at the same time–I’ve seen too many a ripper kids prove it paddling and kicking to snake peaks and catch waves they had, ah, no, ahem, right to catch. We’re talking boards where you swim into/onto the wave.

Sorry, was thinking of my own experiences on tankers/logs…

JSS

During takeoff, if you kick both feet at the same time, from having your feet straight up, to fully straiight and extended, right at the instant you need one last “umph” of speed, you can get a little extra push.

Same thing if you paint it red…

 Howzit resinhead, I agree kicking is useless and I feel it wastes energy that should go into your shoulders for paddling. Had a friend who kicked like a mule and tried to explain about wasting energy but to no avail. It definitly takes away from style also.Aloha.Kokua

hmmm , I’m probably in the wrong thread.

Funny this came up… I have never been a kicker, but the idea intrigued me once… So I tried something out. I laid on my surfboard (shortboard, so I had some leg in the water) and kicked my legs, without paddling with my arms… Guess what? I BARELY MOVED. Maybe my kicking style just isn’t refined, but I gave up on it after that…

Kicking without flippers doesn’t contribute much to forward momentum. It makes one feel like you’re working harder, so it must be good, right?

How about lifting feet over ass to shift weight forward and to reduce drag?

And lying with chin into deck, feet up and arms forward to plane (resistance free) until the wave bowls?

Kooky stuff.

I’m guilty of both.

Thanks for the chin up, back arched peeing urge thing. As prostrate kicks in I’m sure this piece of knowledge is going to save embarrassment. But how to explain adoption of the posture in polite company? (old war wound, possibly)

Arms not legs in my experience.