Speed Surfing challenge

General Discussion
41

Hello MTB,

Having read your analysis of surfing speed, drag and propulsion further, the following thoughts come to mind.

  1. That it is not certain exactly what the smallest possible angle between the surfers path over the bottom and the wave crest actually is, and that it should not be assumed that a particular angle is the smallest achievable (based on past studies). To do so is to present a circular argument, because what the smallest achievable angle is, is precisely what we are in the process of finding out, and it should not be pre-decided.

  2. While I agree that as the surfer goes faster there are diminishing returns on the propulsion versus drag equation, It won’t do to assume that small efficiencies are not possible, nor to assume that ‘normal’ surfboards represent the most efficient possible designs.

Regards, Roy

42

avoiding everybodys toes and tossed stones…

but what is the fastest any board has ever gone? Tow-ins included (not when behind the ski, of course…) i remember reading an article in some surf mag or another with Gerry Lopez claiming his tow-ins clocked in at 45 mph on some big wave…? would something such as this be possible? would we be able to jack a radar gun?

Okay i’ll add an opinion anyway…

i dont really doubt 27 mph at all… okay you can stone me now.

43

Howzit Fluffy, If a board and rider could move without friction, and the wave were infinitely long, then the speed of light would definitely be approached. So it’s really all about friction reduction. Roy

44

Open-ocean swells travel at near 20kts in one direction. It takes going faster than 20kts to overtake them. I have many thousands of miles under my belt going near that speed and over on Catamarans. Now how fast those same swells travel towards shore when breaking I don’t know. Seems they slow a bit when near shore or before becoming waves. Windsurfing on Maui going faster than 20kts you go faster than waves. The fastest I’ve ever gone is either at Osterizers on Maui or Sri Lanka on Bali, both going backside. I’d say I was goin over 20kts for sure on just slightly overhead, but hollow waves at the places just mentioned.

But I windsurfed for many years and when you start going over 25 you feel it, your fins can do weird things, but you just know your going fast. In my 30yrs of surfing I’d say I’ve probably hit near that speed.

I don’t dispute Roy.

45

Hi Bryan,

I think that 27mph is actually quite slow. It was mentioned on this thread

that sprinters can run that fast, and if a mat has been recorded at 23, I

don’t see why a specialized speed board can’t do 27.

Roy

maybe im being sensitive ,but i have got to rant a lil here .

humm i thought the matt was a specialized speed board :slight_smile:

alot of people who haven’t seen a matt in good hands or a top level bodyboarder

possibly think they are slower then normal surfboards

was hoping you would think wow the matt goes faster then most rides on 2x

overhead waves on 1-3 foamers

there must be something very special about it

( 7 oz board ,no drag from fins ! ability to flex contouring to the face!

ability to get much higher in the pocket, lower wind resistance

end of rant whew :slight_smile:

maybe i gave you a wrong impression .

18 mph is really fast !

Let me repeat it again ( in caps hehe)

MOST WAVES ARE UNDER 20 MPH

not to get into a pissing match but if i rode 12 times in up to 2x overhead

waves ,

fast enough to get full body airs .

I was representing some pretty optimal speeds on anything other then a

freak day of waves !

as a former pro bodyboarder 25 yrs surf experience I can useally chase

down most ave surfers on a boogie.

ever see a pro surfer or bodyboarder in real life ?

unless you have ridden it you have no idea the speed available on a wedge

slingshot

its like some huge hand is sweeping you from the back so fast you start to

run over your normal forward resistance you feel it build up

like you have some huge unnatural force propelling you far above normal trim

speeds

you feel the water drag increase trying to slow you but there is no way

the sidewave can be denied

it is a freak wave and it only produced 23 vrs 18 mph for ave ride at 2x

ohead bbreaks

texas flowrider water speed is 23 mph and this is fast enough to make 99.9%

of riders go backwards

until they adjust to driving the rail extremely sideways

best riders can stack maybe another 10 -15 mph of ground speed on top of

that

for a total somewhere under 40 mph this is an ideal situation and even

gathering 1-3 mph of ground speed was fairly = in feeling to the fastest i

think i have ever gone in the ocean think kirra on steroids)

(came back from my flowrider trip able to make section i never thought

possible really HUMBLES YOU )

would be cool to see you drop into the flowrider on your speed board :slight_smile:

my freaking zodiac goes 28 mph, fast enough to overtake and drop in, then

out race any section down the line.

NOTE: I said i got a driving tube and only recorded a 14 mph speed

so your saying on mushy but fast waves you were able to go aprox 2x as fast

as me on a 10 foot face 2-3 second driving barrel

not saying its impossible but you really don’t seem to be giving much credit

or respect to the speeds I posted

my wife said i was going 3x as fast as the other guys is about as subjective

as you can get :slight_smile:

the video analysis was a good idea possibly somewhat flawed in practice (slight angle to the camera adds to your speed what i think happened here )

go buy a geko gps/aquapak combo and get some objective data then get back

on here and report how fast your boards really go :slight_smile:

Soul

46

Good idea mate,

I’m after that ‘Gecko’ for sure. I am not disputing the speeds you have done, after all, a gps is pretty accurate. I got the ball rolling on the subject anyway!

Regards, Roy

PS I didn’t mean to say that your mat isn’t specialized speed surfing equipment (although I did imply that in my post). You know more about mats than I do, I haven’t seen mats here since the 70’s. Would I be right in saying that mats are at their best in hollow waves? My big speed boards are all rounders, and I probably know a bit more about them than you do. No doubt there is more than one way to get there! I look forward to posting some gps recorded speeds which are faster than yours! The day I analysed on the video was only an average day, not the fastest we have had by any means. Although the angle of the camera may have been less than perfect I did not calculate in the beachward movement which would make my estimate (all else being equal) around 2mph lower than it should be.

Also my boards flex into the wave shape.

And your zodiac can’t beat ‘any section’ because it can’t beat closeouts and closeouts are sections.

Just for the record, my wife has spent countless hours panning a canon 800mm so she’s not completely uninformed.

If you saw the lame performances put up by the crew around here (including national champions) then you might understand.

Also I have very low wind resistance. I dont stand there bolt upright rotating my pelvis like some prehistoric styleboarder, I get down low.

Plus my board gets lift from uprushing air on offshore days.

As well as all this, I am able to propel the beast by using muscular effort (pumping) which drives an underwater ‘Tail’ !

47

while you say waves only travel 20mph you realize that you travel fast then the wave on the board correct?

48
Quote:

Although the angle of the camera may have been less than perfect I did not calculate in the beachward movement which would make my estimate (all else being equal) around 2mph lower than it should be.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- beachward movement would increase distance and make speed higher…very backward.

And your zodiac can’t beat ‘any section’ because it can’t beat closeouts and closeouts are sections.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- Thankyou, you are correct in assuming we are a bunch of dumbasse…very valuable information!

------------------------------------------------------------------------ Also I have very low wind resistance. I dont stand there bolt upright rotating my pelvis like some prehistoric styleboarder, I get down low.

Plus my board gets lift from uprushing air on offshore days.

As well as all this, I am able to propel the beast by using muscular effort (pumping) which drives an underwater ‘Tail’ !

You so full of bullshite, maybe it propel you faster when you

release gas out your rear end?

27miles/hour --something very wrong here.

49

Dr Lee,

I don’t see why I should bandy obscenities with you Sir, and if you disagree with what I am saying, then kindly do so in plain English. You have misunderstood my reference to beachward movement and it’s effect on my speed calculations.

I find no useful information in your post whatsoever, and I can assure you that 27mph is just a ‘walk in the park’ for one of my speed boards.

R Stewart

PS You say that you have been surfing for only one year! In that case I suggest that you have earned insufficient “Mana” to allow you to knock me off my perch with unsupported abuse. An old time surfer might get away with such an attempt without attracting scorn, but a newbie surfer such as yourself should try to keep to the facts.

50

Bug Power, Sorry I didn’t follow that, mate, was the message to someone else? Roy

51
Quote:

beachward movement would increase distance and make speed higher…very backward.

Forget your math…yes if distance increases over the same time peiord speed is higher. Unless your going backwards…or was that your point? Here’s a little diagram for you. As you can see on the diagram. If you only measure the distance left to right you’ll get one speed. Since the distance is different, HOWEVER if you measure basically the hypotnuse of the triangle, you’ll find that it’s a bit faster.

So on a wave traveling 20mph, you travel 20mph perpendicularly your actual speed is roughly 28mph since you traveled perpendcularly 20 miles in the same hour the wave( and you) traveled forward. this leads to a 45º angle made by the surfer. So on a wave which has the capibility of doing 20mph towards shore. I think it’s possible to reach upper 20’s in speed.

edit forgot my crappy diagram.

52

Hi Roy…

The surf mats to which Soul is referring are very different vehicles, and did not exist until late 1982.

Their flex involves continual, independent response to both rider and wave. This is characterized by changes in rocker, width, template, thickness profile, rail and bottom contours, buoyancy, flex/torque, etc.

Functioning at low air volumes, a mat`s running surface readily adapts itself to the wave face, and even the texture of the water… naturally seeking out the paths of least resistance. No other wave craft does that.

Modern surf mats are designed to operate in a wide range of waves and surface conditions. More than a few of the most experienced surfers use them to unusual advantage in smaller, choppy, flat-faced waves… the longer, the better.

53

Thanks Dale, They are now on my wish to have list. We used to have things called surf-o-planes, but they were always pumped up hard. Roy

54

Hi Mr Soul,

It has just been pointed out to me by my pet surf photographer that there is no possible camera angle which will make a ride appear faster than it really is. Any camera angle which is at right angles to the actual path of the rider will show the true speed. Any other angle will make the ride appear to be slower than it really is.

Regards, Roy

55

I hear this guy’s pretty fast on a mat…

56

I love this discussion! You may have already thought of this but… Most consumer video equipment can not advance in a true frame by frame manor. Consumer (and some professional) DVD players jump about 3-4 frames at a time. This is also true for MiniDV, 8mm, VHS-C and VHS. The old fashioned laser disk from the 80s and 90s can go frame by frame. Even if the button says “Frame Advance” it may not be a true frame. It needs to be a frame-accurate editing deck.

Also, in North America we use NTSC for our video format which means that the video is really 29.97 Frames-Per-Second. It doesn’t seem like a lot but it adds up. That why many TV production houses (including me at The Disney Channel) use “Drop Frame” time code. That means we drop a frame every 10 minuets to compensate.

I hope the GPS helps in this big mess. I can’t wait to see what you find!

-Jacob

57

re painting a red stripe 5’ long - no need - you already have a reference if you know the board length. You could measure lateral speed in one tangent using a wide angle videocam - but this doesn’t factor in the distance travelled towards the beach - if you factor this in then speed increases. Only way to do it is with gps and v accurate timing - best luck - i’m really interested in your findings.

58

I read this story anout body surfing on this small planet that had a methane atmosphere. The surf there was considreable,the most memorable discriptive part was about body surfing 10’ tubes going gillotine over an inside section that the threat was breaching your atmospheric insulating suit,if your suit hit bottom and cracked you evaporated on contact with the liquid methane…how fast would you go in methane…ambrose…oh yea there was a no smoking rule planet wide…how does this relate to this thread?1. the speed question 2. the polite way to handle a distinguishable wind without evaporating on contact psycho/spiritualy

59

Hello Bocaj,

Thanks for the information. We have been doing the frame advance after the material has been captured into the hard drive on my computer and we are using video editing software to do it. It is very obvious that the frames are advancing regularly as a three or four (or two) frame jump would be immediately noticeable. The frame advance function on the camera itself is not as good. Regards, Roy.

60

To put my 2 cents in regarding wave speed, I own and operate a commercial fishing boat and in my experience I can out run a following sea when doing about 12 knots.

Now we all know that a ocean swell slows down when it hits the shallows, this slowing down of the base of the swell is infact what causes it to brake anyway.

I normally cruise at 15 knots but the boat will surge up to low 20s when ‘surfing’ down the face, especially when the boat begins to slew to the left or right, and in really hairball conditions I think I’ve hit about 28 knots when cutting across laterally.

Now I don’t know if this is of any value but you definetely travel way faster than wave speed when surfing across a wave, but I doubt whether general mushy beach break surf is going any faster than 12 knots.

I also doubt the accuracy of any GPS unit to measure short bursts of speed because of the nature of how they work. Also, you guys are aware of the differential, right! how the whole GPS system is deliberately made to be slightly inaccurate for all except the military so that the enemy can’t use our own system against us to guide missiles etc.

Anyway speed is good, but do we want to know speed over ground, speed over water or speed over wave?