Steve Lis 5'5 fish...?

sasolitude · April 6, 2006, 1:28pm

I've been lurking here awhile and as I'll be starting my first board soon, I figured I'd go ahead and make a post. 



The board i've chosen to make is the 5'5 Steve Lis fish kneeboard that's in the "How to Build a Surfboard" book. I imagine the board has been shaped by alot of people here but i'm curious as to experiences of those on the forum who've made slight mods to it to improve it's performance for stand up surfing. Any help is appreciated.

riderofwaves · April 6, 2006, 8:18pm

to forgo the usual check the archives post, believe me those things are hard to navigate. but the 5’5 is really hard to get to go rail to rail unless you got some size to ya. i say narrow it down to about 20 1/5 also concaves insted of the v, and then don’t use the keels. If you are aiming for a fish that is high preformance i say make a quad very similar to the pavel speeddialer.

nj_surfer · April 6, 2006, 8:50pm

The Lis Fish is designed for knee boarding in long, fast point break surf, so if you’re gonna stand up and high the local beach break, you’re gonna have to make some changes. I agree that they can be hard to go from rail-to-rail, but there’s subtle things you can do to change that.

Depending on how big you are, I’d go to 5’10" or 6’0, but you could go as big as 6’3" if you’re over 6 feet tall and 185 lbs. and still have a traditional fish that the purists would respect.

I’d keep the flat-to-vee bottom for the true fish feel and flat out speed that fish are famous for, and they’re easy to shape. Save the concaves for later endeavours.

Stay in the 21" wide range for sure, and make sure you follow the wide-point-forward rule of thumb. Otherwise, follow the general outline of the Lis Fish, especially in the front two thirds. The only modification I like to make is to pull in the tail, just a little, for more of a loose feel in punchy, snappy little beachbreak waves, and continue the curve all the way to the tips. I’ve abandoned the absolutely straight lines in the aft third for waves around here… no point breaks.

Down rails work great on fish. I like to tuck under the edge in the tail instead of make it flat all the way out. This gives better hold in critical parts of the wave, especially if you’re gonna go with the more modern “keel-like” fin, which I like better than the true keels. I use fiberglass, one-sided foiled fins, only slightly toed in and no more than 4 degrees of cant. Again, this is because I don’t ride my fish in long, point surf.

Low rocker, like the Lis Fish, and a big, deep swallow true to form to round it out.

Here’s a Lis-inspired fish that works great in waves knee to a foot or so overhead… currently under repair. This one has a pretty pointy nose, but otherwise, pretty much a traditional Lis-type Fish. Really fun to shape and even more fun to ride.

sasolitude · April 6, 2006, 9:37pm

thanks for all the help so far. I’m 5’8 and 135 lbs and tend to ride my boards pretty short. I usually ride a 5’7 single fin thats more front-foot, and i think i could go shorter. Board is pretty much going to be used in waist high mushy crap, but i’m making it with travel in mind (Peru, Chile)so obviously pointbreaks are definitely figuring into the equation. i see the outline of the Lis Fish and i love it, i can really look at the outline and see that it’s what i’m looking for.

I guess my main questions are about (1) tail rocker (the template doesn’t have any) and (2) fins - i didn’t really have a 4 fin setup in mind (really wanting to try the keels)

but now 4 fins have been suggested.

actually there’s so many questions i have, it just really sucks as around here. there’s really no shapers, especially with experience in the kinda stuff i’ve always ridden, so im going into this basically clueless. i guess it’s experminteation, trial and error…

wildy · April 6, 2006, 9:50pm

Listen to what everyone says, but ultimately do what YOU want, after all, it’s yours for you.

There’s a few good pics of Dan Thompson riding one in the latest surfer(ing?) mag. And a shot of him riding what looks like a modern twin, not unlike a Louis Ferrera model from the late 70’s.

I like the modern one personally, but again, choose what you want to ride as you are the one riding it.

Have fun.

Surf4fins · April 6, 2006, 10:29pm

I did a fish a bit ago and pulled a ton of stuff from the archives. Here’s some that may be of use.

I just went through all this with Herb and Magic Man. They gave me some killer info. I am picking up my eps blank tomorrow. I’m so stoaked. I’m doing a 6’ (bottom length) 17" nose 21" width (two inches up from true center) and a 16 5/8" tail. The swallow tail will be 6" deep. The rails will be soft until about 18" from the end of the board, then they will have a hard bottom edge. I am glassing on some (modern template) twin fins about 5" to 5 1/2" from the end of the board and about an inch in from the rail edge @ 3 to 4 degrees and towed in toward the stinger 1/8". The bottom will be flat with very low rocker (I have not made up my mind yet). Probably 2 1/2" to 3" nose rocker with 1/2" to 3/4" tail rocker. It is going to be 2 3/4" thick, it should float super good because of the eps foam. I can’t wait to get dusty. Good Luck.

here is some quad fin setup info;

we use the following Future Fins models. Front: “SB1 350” one side foil, Rear: “6 462” double foil.

The measurements

rear fin trailing edge to tail tip: 5 3/4" inches.
rear fin trailing edge/front to rail: 2 11/16" inches.
front fin trailing edge to tail rip: 11" inches.
front fin trailing edge to rail: 2 9/16" inches.
front fin trailing edge/front to tail tip: 14 3/4" inches.
front fin trailing edge to front of the rear fin: 1 3/4" inch.
toe in (both): 1/8" inch.

Obs.: The difference seems small but we used a single foil rear fin (same size) and the described above is better (more stable than).

Toby:

good placement for a quad is 5.50" and 11." or the back fin half the distance of the front fin. toe-in around 3/16"

The Pavel quad fish has the front fins toed 1/8th, and the rear fins toed 1/16th or no toe in. They go extremely well!

Quads have two fins per side, more balanced in fin size. Performance depends on how the fins are set up, fore-aft spacing, whether both are toed in and/or single foiled. Canard Quads have a rear double foiled fin that lacks toe-in.

5’9" pavel quad i bought right here on swaylocks classified. it’s got two subtle wing/bumps just up from the tail toed in canted front fins and nearly vert nearly straight ahead rear fins.

Did a quad fish a few weeks ago and the guy used GX’s and G-3000’s.

Look at the Toby article on http://www.allaboutsurf.com on the last page is a great picture of the fins/tail (may be just the fin marks on foam). Word (hearsay actually) from Toby is that the fins point to the tips. So trailing fin points to the board swallow tip and the leading fin points to the bump he puts in these boards. Fins do not overlap.

Just about to plonk some fins on my latest 5’8 fishee, and this is what I’ve dredged up re the Quad set-up:

-Back fins double foiled, 5.5" up from tips, no toe-in, 1.5" to 1.75" in from rail, 7 dgr cant.

-Front fins single foiled, 11" up from tips, toe-in ‘to taste’ (I do mine to a point 2.5-3" either side of the nose), 1.5" in from rail, 7 dgr cant.

hope this helps…

nj_surfer · April 7, 2006, 12:50am

OK…

I’d recommend a guy your size ride a fish in the 5’6 range… so 5’5 is cool if that’s what you’ve got your heart set on. As far as the outline goes, stick with what you’re instinct is telling you. Realizing that you’ll be riding point surf changes almost everything. You could ride a straight up, classic Lis Fish, as is, in Chilean point surf no problem. It would go great. Especially coming off a single fin.

Tail rocker: less is more for what you’re after. I’ve got zero tail rocker in that green board I posted pics of, and love it. I like to make sure the flat part of the tail rocker does not start too far forward. For me, the rocker should be flat in the tail, and gradually accelerate from the leading edge of your fins through the nose. Default to the specs you have if that’s what you feel comfortable with. And I agree that you should keep that hard beaded edge along the tail, too. I like mine tucked under the whole way, fading to hard starting about 6" ahead of the front edge of the fins.

Fins: I’ve ridden quads and keels, and I prefer keels on “retro” fish, hands down. Modern fish are a different story. But listen to the wise man here who said, “it’s for you”… do whatever blows your skirt up. Just remember, it’s your first one, so don’t make it difficult for yourself. Four fins are twice as hard as two…giving you half the margin of error. Twin fins are faster, and with the right placement are looser and give you the ability to draw some beautiful lines out on the open face. Quads, in my experience, are snappier and allow tighter arcs. I like quads on boards that are thinner overall with a little more rocker, giving you a little more of a “short board” feel then a traditional “fish” feel.

Thickness: go 1/8" thinner with EPS than the specs give you for PU.

rooster · April 7, 2006, 2:37am

Best freakin fish thread we’ve had here in a long time. I’m gonna print and keep it. I like NJsurf’s stuff the most. Great numbers on fin placement, too. I will add that in my experience the keel fins work better that narrow based twin fin systems on a traditional wide tail-deep crack fish. Mine spun out in waves over shoulder high. I have a hard time pushing my keels out. Translates into down the line speed! So much fun. Start tweeking it too much you get a different animal. A great board, perhaps,but a different animal. Mike

liguid · April 7, 2006, 3:38am

here is a “real” new one… a kneeboard for waves 2 ft -10ft

nj_surfer · April 7, 2006, 11:49am

That’s a beauty. Nice lines. And look at those fins…straight ahead. Tells you something about the purpose of the design.

Have fun!

sasolitude · April 7, 2006, 4:44pm

thanks all…great insight.

Surf4fins · April 7, 2006, 6:06pm

Rooster/NJ_Surfer, I love my fish! But so far I’ve made only quads. A 5’10" like the Pavel Speed Dialer and more traditional thickness/outline with a single to double based on Steve Seebold quad. Guess I gotta make one flat with keels to really see the diff. between the keel and quad.

There is so MUCH on fish in the archives.

Liquid, what happened to the photo?

SAsolitude, have fun with it and keep the thread going with your progress.

PS. there’s another fish thread going;

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=262134;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

rooster · April 7, 2006, 6:35pm

Dang that Brom is sweet! Yah, the beauty in making your own is you can try all this different stuff at relatively lower cost. Plus, the joy of riding a board you made with your own hands. I like to make the fins, too. I made a 5-8 with the canard quad that surfs really nice. Didn’t make the fins, though. Next time. Mike

cleanlines · April 7, 2006, 6:43pm

Brom is the Man.Jim Phillips shapes a good one also but he is known for his longboards.Both of them are cranky old men though. RB

Surf4fins · April 7, 2006, 7:13pm

Roger, if you would…if you were making a 5’5" fish for point surf, what would you do???

JimtheGenius???

sasolitude · April 7, 2006, 4:44pm