Calling all experts.
I’ve read that when doing a repair where there’s shatters or hairline cracks beneath or outside the repair area, that you can put styrene on them and it will penetrate into the crack making it dissappear. Anybody done this?
I understand that it is not structural, but only wets the crack so that it doesn’t show any more.
Does this work? Is it some other material than styrene?
Uhmmm- good question.
It’s likely that it penetrates the cracks, all right, as would acetone, gasoline or any other very thin liquid - say, hot chicken soup.
However, they all evaporate eventually, with the possible exception of the chicken soup. While styrene might possibly partially dissolve the polyester resin ( it is, after all, used as a solvent and thinner in most polyester resins) and cause it to melt together, it’s unlikely that it’d do a very good job. And the cracks would reappear.
But to have a second look at the question:
I’ve read that when doing a repair where there’s shatters or hairline cracks beneath or outside the repair area, that you can put styrene on them and it will penetrate into the crack making it dissappear.
Okay, then we get to the question of ‘why on earth would this be necessary’.
You see, the standard way of dealing with cracks ( as they are only in the gloss and hotcoat) is to hit the area with 100 grit sandpaper, munch your way well into the hotcoat, then regloss.
And the way to start a ding repair properly is to give the area surrounding the ding hell with 100 grit well down into the hotcoat, so that the new material you’re using will stick to the board rather than flaking off (‘failing in shear’ is the technical term) the first time the board is used hard enough to flex it.
Then you fill, then you glass over the filler and then you regloss, usually with some sanding in between steps.
See what I am driving at here?
If you’re doing the ding repair right, then you’re also doing a crack repair right, no extra charge. There’s absolutely no need to futz with styrene at all. The sanding and reglossing involved in any ding repair take care of the cracks very nicely.
hope that’s of use
doc…
LOL! That means I was laughing out loud. Well, I was actually sort of chuckling inside, but I use the overused LOL to indicate that I found your reply funny. Which it was. Thanks DOC.
I do see your point of making correct repairs, not hiding cracks. This is not a situation where I just want to make cracks go away by not fixing them. I’m working on a broken board. I’ll be doing all the stuff I’ve been told to do on this kind of repair. But as the stress developed prior to the break, it made for a bunch of lateral stess cracks adjacent to break. I will sand into the area and reglass, etc., but there will be cracks further out that I won’t fully sand all the way to the foam.
These are the cracks in guestion. Areas where after sanding and glassing you can still see the crack in the deep parts, closer to the foam. Depending on the repair, I would think this condition would be pretty common out on the edges of repairs. Otherwise you have to sand to the foam everywhere there is a crack in the resin.
I forget where I read it now. Maybe it was in George Orbelian’s Essential Surfing, or some online thing, I’m not sure. I’m at work so I can’t check that book. Anyway, I read somewhere that styrene will penetrate and wet the crack all the way to the foam which makes the crack dissappear so you can’t see it through the glass after the repair is done. I’ve still been able to see some cracks like that after I’ve made repairs. Especially where I put a nice polish on them. I was thinking that in areas where I sand to the cloth but not through it, if I dab something wet on there to make the underlying crack dissappear, it would make for a cleaner repair.
Of course, I wouldn’t want whatever goes in the crack to melt or damage anything.
That said, and I probably said too much, have you or anybody hear of this technique?
Thanks.
Hi Ryan,
Wayull, a few things come to mind;
First off, for fixing a busted board, see http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=227023 where Neira really does it right. By far the best approach/methodology I have ever seen, very well thought through, it all works.
Next, well, the board probably broke for a reason such as being glassed too light. Those stress cracks are an indicator, so going well past the break itself with some 4 oz cloth might be a good thing to do. Which in turn will deal with said cracks.
Also, if they go down to the glass, through the gloss and hotcoat, all is okay, but if they go beyond that ( as would be evidenced by a little foam discoloration there) you definitely need to add glass.
I have seen Orbelian’s thing and a few of the online repair things, and I kinda think they are at best dated and in some cases very , very wrong. Including my own stuff on the subject.
Yes, fellow Swaylockians, I have learned a great deal here. My thanks.
Getting back away from maudlin gratitude, wetting the crack with styrene or acetone or the ever popular chicken soup will ( ugly simile comes to mind) do you no good. It’ll evaporate, is all.
Thinning some sanding resin with styrene (to the consistency of milk) will do something, however, it’ll penetrate the crack ( even uglier simile ) and fill it permanently and solidly and it might even bond okay and strengthen it a bit. I’ve done similar stuff, though I used acetone rather than styrene as a thinner/solvent. Either will work fine, just remember that the thinning slows the hardening so it’ll have to be quite a hot batch. I brush it in with a wide chip brush, at least 2", and it has worked for me a few times.
hope that helps
doc…
Ryan,
Here’s a tip from the past. (Convair G.D. 1959, plastics department) Mix a small amount of catalyst and resin. Add to it equal parts of styrene and acetone, creating a “wash”. Treat the affected area with this mixture. The volitiles will evaporate leaving the resin in the cracks sealing them.
This is interesting reading, thanks.
One further question while we’re on the topic of styrene and acetone.
Can You thin resin with acetone instead of styrene when doing a glosscoat?
Thin superglue will do the trick, and it’s good structurally as well.
Warm the area up a bit, then put the glue on while it’s cooling and sucking air in. It will take the glue with it. With practice you can get rid of all sorts of cracks and shatters.
Doc, Doc, Doc,
You got to me. Tonight I took my daughter to Soup Plantation which is essentially a salad bar, buffet chain of restaurants here in SoCal. The obvious operative word here is soup. My daughter likes soup. Especially Soup Plantation’s chicken soup. As I looked accross the table at her soup, I saw that bowl of chicken soup in a way I’d never seen chicken soup before. Shame on you.
Man, this has yielded some good advice. Sounds like Doc and Thrailkill are on the same page with thinned catalyzed resin. The superglue idea sounded pretty good too. Certainly a little more simple. I worry a little more about reactions with the superglue.
One guestion about the resin “wash”. Sanding resin or laminating resin? Here’s the scenario: I’m several inches out from the break. I’ve sanded through the hotcoat and into the glass, in other words I’m prepped for the full wrap of glass. I wet the area with…let’s say acetone, and I can still see the cracks down through the cloth. Wouldn’t I want to use lam’ resin here? I suppose if I used sanding resin I could wait for it to harden then sand it, but wouldn’t tacky lam’ resin be better to put the glass over?
I can definitely see where sanding resin would work best on surface applications. I have a couple boards that have little stars and snackles. I like that word snackles…snackles. Woe. I was drifting a bit. Anyway they don’t go through but they aren’t pretty either. I could see a quick touch-up on those stars and…snacklllllles… snap out of it! A little fine sanding and a polish. Tu-dah! Nice detail work.
Here’s another concern. I’m no chemist but I worry about thining so much. Sound like you guys have had some success with this so I guess it doesn’t permanently damage the resin. I think I can already hear Doc formulating a response to the effect of “The resin is already thinned with a bunch of styrene. A little more isn’t going to damage anything.”
He said maudlin… 
In the circumstance you describe, LAM resin wuold be fine. Don’t pre rinse with acetone with exposed cloth, it tends to bleach out.
Ryan -
Try this on your snackle…
Sand down to the weave, dab styrene and cover with resin and lightweight cloth pronto. Feather and gloss as normal.
You’ll see that the styrene thins the resin at the site of the repair and allows the resin to penetrate the weave better than resin alone. Good on snackles and cracks. I learned that from George Orbelian himself and have generally been pleased with the results when I’ve done repairs that way.
Dabbing the styrene without covering with resin afterwards? The styrene simply evaporates and you’re back to square one. Styrene by itself is not gonna fix it.
Ryan,
for those small cracks that haven’t broken the glass I use crazy glue . Then cover with gloss or surfacng resin to protect it. Crazy glue works great
Mark
John, or should I say Mr. Mellor, thanks for the input.
Okay, I think I’m about to push the “technicallity” limit here. Is that a word?
There’s been a lot of talk about styrene. Since I don’t have any styrene laying about in my garage…AHEM…uh…er…I mean board repair shop (wink), can I just substitute acetone for styrene in all the advice given here?
I do take precautions, but I hear styrene is pretty nasty stuff healthwise. And Crystaliner’s smalles size is a pint. I’ll wind up owning that until the can rusts through. Which is a little longer than I care to.
I imagine there’s a good reason why the resin companies use styrene. It might be cost, it might be evaporation rate, it might be chemical compatibility, it might be tendency to separate, I don’t know. As a matter of cost, safety, and convenience, I’d prefer to just use the acetone I have on hand, but if that’s not good for the resin I may be forced to get some styrene.
Styrene…Acetone…Styrene…Acetone (the visual here is with each word I look from the palm one hand to the other)
By the way, Swaylock’s is awsome! I mean really…check this thread. I’m just a knucklehead looking for some help and there are some pretty smart fellers posting here.
GOOOOO SWAYLOCK’S!!
Mister? I guess I’ve been called worse. John, please.
Anyway, I haven’t tried using acetone with that trick.
Howzit EricG, Acetone is a cleaner and is not the optimal chemical to thin your glossing resin. Do it right and get some styrene which is a resin thinner and works much better for glossing. Aloha,Kokua
Oh yah, the glossing thing. I read that it helps gloss flow out smoother. I’ve glossed just doing my best is warm weather to help the viscosity. I suppose if I buy a pint of styrene and use it for glossing, I won’t be stuck with it for so long.
Howzit Ryan, Every real glasser has styrene in their shop since it has more than one use and you will use a pint pretty fast. Me I buy it by the gal sind it’s usually gone in about 2-3 months. Aloha,Kokua
Kokua,
Yah, I remember people telling me about it. I was spooked by it’s toxicity. I suppose I’ll get some and just be careful.
Thanks.
Howzit Ryan, Yes styrene is probably the most toxic chemical that a glasser uses and it is a cancer causing agent. Use good chem gloves when using or if you are using a brush to apply it just open the lid and stick the brush in the can for applying. Another thing to consider is when you clean the brush use a separate small acetone caontainer for the first claen sinc e the acetone now has styrene in it and is you put your hands in the acetone the styrene will get in to your skin with the acetone. Be very careful when using it.Aloha,Kokua
Thanks a lot Kokua. Good tips. It’s easy to do the wrong thing out of ignorance and wind up paying for it later. I think I’d like to avoid cancer.
i dont know if thats what there trying to do here
making the crack dissapear with some substance
