Why dont kneeboarders-bellyboarders ride scrunched down Greg Liddle style hull designs? Tapered thin, rolled bottom, fat outline, low rocker, a big flexi fin! Anybody: don
t that stuff work for knee-prone 3’6" to 5’6" shapes? Thanx!
They work.
They also “bob” when riding on knees, as you are more sensitive and don’t absorb shock as well, feeling the thickness.
Ducking under waves/whitewater is also harder with thicker kneeboards.
Thicker doesn’t help wave catching, as you have fins and arms already.
When kneeriding, you have less leverage to lean out and sink the rail on hi speed bottom turns, so thinner helps.
When kneeriding, you can’t throw your body around as much as standup, so slightly sinking the whole board while in full plane gives you back some projection and shoot off your hard turns.
Yo Bruce
One historical knee riding figure rode such a board – Greenough. As far as I know, his Velo was a super thin fiberglass model with a flex fin, which enabled him to cover vast expanses on the wave face because of its outline, its flex characteristic, complimented by the flex fin.
Perhaps wave-catching ability in today’s crowded lineups, and a labor intensive process are why kneeboarders aren’t riding similar boards. Yes, the design works, but maybe it is too hard to catch waves on a board that hardly floats ya?
A small fish blows the doors of any other kneeboard design including flex spoon.I did see a few guys ride liddle kneeboards in the seventies at malibu and they worked great i just think the Lis fish or close is overall a very good reason to kneeride.You can ride a good fish in 2ft mush to 10 ft pipe!–plus standups have figured out 30 yrs later what keeriders have always known:)
Kit,
George`s opinion on this subject from three days ago: “Apart from their feel(compared to his flexible kneeboards), Fish are basic narrow range vehicles. Fine for fairly clean waves, but terrible in powerful, twisted, choppy slabs!”
Anyone whos ridden a Fish on their knees in sectioning, ledgy 8
-10’+ waves with a strong sideshore bump knows what George was saying.
In contrast, anyone whos ever seen him riding one of his older spoons or latter carbon graphite edge boards, under the same (or heavier) conditions... well, they know they
re witnesssing another level of performance… something completely different:
“…(Dec. 1968?) saw Merv Larson on Surf Ski, sort of kayakish, at Rincon–12-15 foot faces with cross offshore wind, lot of corragation and chop on faces. Only him and Greenough out. Totally different approaches, both totally amazing! Larson was doing rolls, lip smacks and getting totally buried under the lip and powering back out. Greenough, well what else needs be said…”
By “Dr. Strange”, Tue Mar 30, 2004, (http://www.ksusa.org/)
I would be the first person to agree that GG was unbelievable on his graphite spoons in big unrideable surf–no question ! The thing is no one else really rode those boards as well as him and,or could afford to build one themselves,maybe a few at best.He was basically the only guy I saw riding gnarl on those boards .I disagree with the comment that little fishes are really limited.What about big clean surf?Good beachbreak surf? On a spoon?His target surf at the time as I understood was big, windy, uncrowded ,point surf – when I sat on the beach with my littlefish and watched him at play in the gnarliest rincon I have seen - alone. I new he was on to something!!Now to ride a spoon at rincon would be a joke with the crowd today.
Hi liquid,
George recently said that the desire for unhindered peace of mind, fun and freedom in his surfing has been the primary motivation behind his designs.
His original flex spoons (such as “Velo”) were narrow range vehicles, operating best in a specific, powerful, ideal wave. Unfortunately they were also very ineffective in flatter, weaker, lesser quality, crowded conditions.
After his favorite “A” grade spots became too populated for the spoons to run well, George developed his carbon graphite edge boards to allow surfing in a wider range of waves and surface conditions. At that time, his preferred “B” grade breaks were still relatively open.
But eventually, in response to the pressures of over- crowding, he finally stopped kneeboarding. This change was also influenced by the development of ultralight nylon and polyurethane surf mats. As George said, “When it wasnt quite right for the kneeboards and they weren
t working well, the mats were always so much fun!” He often describes his surf mats as being the most deceptively sophisticated surfing vehicles in the world.
The following was spoken years ago, while he was still a kneeboarder… the modern surf mat having since become his ultimate pragmatic solution for riding waves:
“The funny thing about mats is that they’re the easiest thing to surf on a basic, beginner level, but they’re the hardest thing to surf on an advanced level. It takes 10 years of experience before you can drive them anywhere near their potential. I’ve been riding mats day-in and day-out for over 40 years, and I’m still learning things. I’ve never been bored riding a mat, ever. They’re just too challenging and too much fun…”
"Mats are the most challenging things Ive ever surfed on. I love the way they feel to ride, and they work in any kind of wave. Also, they
re very easy to transport. You can roll up two mats, a pair of fins and a wetsuit and put it into a handbag and carry it onto a plane. If I had to ride
one thing out of all the surfing vehicles I have- a mat would be my choice."
After all the years and people riding Liddles, they have evolved into boards that need to be around 7’ long to work best. In MY opinion, it is because the curvey bottom is a relatively inefficient planning surface. However, it does work really REALLY well when put on edge. In order to catch waves, the hulls had to overcome the curvey bottom problem by adding length and thickness (S deck). Take away the length and thickness, you end up with a roundy slab that goes well in extremely good, lined-up waves, driven by a very good pilot. But, as soon as the push stops, the board begins to sink and it gets very slow very fast. My evil twin (LeeDD) nails the reason you cannot add thickness to a kneelo.
Greenough (again in MY opinion) overcame the inefficient bottom by first taking all the rocker out of the board and adding flex to put back the curve only when you needed it. Problem was you still needed a fairly good wave for them to work because the rail bottom interface was still fairly rounded. To get them to work in crap, George added the edge bottom to create an even more efficient planing bottom to a flex design. Separate the rail from the bottom with a clean edge. Voila…a flexy kneeboard that didn’t need Rincon or Angourie to work. For the rest of us, the flexies still need size because they DON’T FLOAT and we don’t weigh 135 lbs!!!
Kinda the bottom line is while round is fun, flat is versatile. Or you can lay down on the inflated path that gives you both…
This all begs another topic…other than jacking, inside out crushers, or tight tubes, why would anyone ride a kneeboard anyway? (Sorry, Gary…) They are the ultimate frustration in surf under 3-feet and at over 8 feet you spend more time in the air than on the water.
Evil twin here.
And I agree almost completely with your last post!
I know a few bonafide kneelers in SanFrancisco’s OB scene, and they really have the passion and love that any surfer has for their sport, only they don’t stand up. Size range is sorta true, my buds are big guys, from 6’ to Rich Thornton 6’6", and ride well in surf from 4’ up to around 10.
They’re the acknowledge “masters” of Dmans, and for getting tubed in all sorts of waves. Kinda limiting for my preferences, as I like to surf more variety in size and also don’t care for tube rides, instead prefering an aerial off the lip/freefall combo keeping up with the peeling wave.
Funny how they ride knees evenup, but prefer lefts like a goof.
Yessss…I mean not to disparage our genuflective brethren as I spent my first 25 years of surfing riding kneeboards and still prefer to ride them in hollow lefts…it’s a right tool for the job kind of question. That backside/front side thing IS weird but true. I can get deeper going left on a kneelo or sponge but can’t turn worth a…
My favorite view of someone aerializing is from the barrel…
Cool, to each his own.
I don’t tuck because I’m too stiff to bend over, bend my knees, and still stay in balance…I just tip over. Besides, who cares if the wave is under DOH anyways.
That’s why “I need the variety in size” thing.