I'm sure you intentions were sincere. However it's not a bad Ideal to have expert commentary on board design. You can ask someone like Rusty or Gary Linden. Jim Phillips is an artist and board builder who knows all the answers. If you seek out the facts before you post I think you will have an even broader audience.
Thrakill is also a good soure as well as Balsa. Bill Barnfield, Bruce Fowler. So many resources on this site that could help you.
Yeah s.s. the pack advice is a good way to get a beat down in some places, almost guarantees making enemies and maybe worst of all makes it more difficult for others coming after you. Basically packs can rule soup usually without too much mess but in a pack or alone be respectful and you will be a better surfer for everyone.
Your takin a few on the head but if surfing means more to you than web hits, paddle back out. Give credit to those who pointed you in the correct direction.
I find it hard to understand why people post in such an agressive way using a slangy language.
Many forget that english is not the only language on this planet although it is one of the international languages by convention.
I don't see surfers as outsiders or a tribal group that you have to prove yourself to get in
You have good people and bad people all around the world and surfers are no exception as individuals.
I build boards and don't surf at all. But surfers love my boards.
I understand that being a surfer helps and is an added value...but hey ,there are many shapers outthere that do surf whos boards are crap too.
In order to do a good board you need to understand the principals of the boards components.
Tail, nose, rails, rocker, bottom, fins, length, width and soforth.
And still there is more to it such as type of wave and also the surfer himself and what his looking for to do on a wave.
So many factors...thats why there are thousand of different shapes.
You can learn by surfing and you can learn all the theory with the surfers. I spend hours with them to learn as much as I can.
The real and genuin surfer is the one that shares his experience and loves to talks about waves and boards.
Then you have the guru that knows everything and is a complete snob. He keeps his experience within his group (pack?). These are the ones that do not have patience for the newbies and consider themselves the superior breed and do not tolerate misunderstandings.
Regarless if you surf or not has nothing to do with shaping a surfboard. A craftsman is a craftsman as an Artist is an Artist just as a Scientist is still a Scientist a jerk is still a Jerk. It's just too bad that most choose to act like the latter?
I have finally learned to tune out the haters and share with those who seek. Besides 95% of what you say on a shapers forum is ignored anyway by the ones you are refering to as snobs! Forget about them. Besides there are no secretes!
When I typed this thought I did not have any other surf forums in mind. But, I will say many of the comments read on this thread remind me of what I have read at sufermag. In other words, insider snobbery and not in the spirit of giving help. The surf science guy has come on here like a gentleman, apologized even though it was not necessary, and he's still being given some shit by a few Sways 'experts.' Does the surf sciene thing come off like a bunch of kooks? Yes. Are they giving some bad advice? Yes. Are they going to get anyone hurt? Probably not. So then, who really gives a shit? Most beginners get it all figured out in the water with time, anyway. Mike
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....I venture to say some view Sways in the same light as some of the opinions voiced concerning surf science on this thread. Mike
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the guys on the surfermag design forum are very good at evaluating the latest surfboard and fin offerings from the market, but Swaylocks is THE forum for Surf Science! I suppose I can see why some of the other forums have their doubts about us, we do like our diagrams and apply aircraft wing theory to our fins.
Anyway its time for me to put my tin-foil hat back on, type some numbers into the calculator and start thinking about my next post to swaylocks regarding the truth about surfboard design
I really like this surfing in packs discussion and think that like in any intelligent conversation, there can be more than one correct answer depending on teh situation. Lets consider a few different scenarios where in some cases the pack would not be a good idea or go over well, but in some it might just be the best option:
-Lowers on a 6’ SW groundswell
-The local longboarding spot
-Da Hui in the 1970’s
-towing into Todos Santos
-your backyard mediocre beach break during summer tourist season
-Malibu, any time ever
-High School surf team practice
Lets not forget, this can apply to groups of beginners or advanced guys and even mixed groups where a few guys rip and a few guys are learning.
Surfing is not a team sport and there is no place out in the lineup for the jock mentality. If my kid loses a wave to you because you were more capable of putting yourself into position than he was then he doesn’t deserve it. Regardless of who he is or where he’s from or who he knows. Me being there to run interference for him by impeding you isn’t the appropriate answer. In addition to screwing you over it also teaches him the wrong thing and perpetuates a bad attitude that is already too pervasive out there.
A good surfer doesn’t need the support of a team in order to get their waves. A novice surfer who can’t get their waves is obviously out of their element and if they don’t like it then shouldn’t even be clogging that lineup in the first place. They should relocate to a less crowded spot just like everyone else does when they’re first starting out.
As far as I am aconcerned there is no time or place when paddeling out with a crowd of 6 or more will HELP you get waves and make people avoid you. When i see a “crew” of six guys getting ready to paddle out together on the peak I am surfing I feel many things, intimidation is not one of them, especially if it is at my home break and the crew is all strangers (even more if they cant surf). The last thing that I would do is GIVE the crew waves. You want to surf with bad vibes and angy locals then I recomend paddleing out in a large crew, if you want to keep people happy and the vibe stoked then I recomend walking down the beach one at a time and paddeling out individually- at least that is what I was taught.
I dont want to knock your site and your efforts without providing some insight. I would suggest talking about wave generation, which is a science I think many noobs dont understand. Talk about wind speed and fetch, great circle paths and swell direction, or about wave hieght and dominant period and the effects all of these have on generating and sending waves at your favorite surf spot.
Talk about proper surfing etiquette in and out of the water (the “crew” recomendation is in direct violation of this IMO) and like SD said get some experts in there if you are giong to talk about the “science” of board building, like it has been said here many times, there is the science of fluid mechanics and hydrodynamics but their application to surf craft is hardly univeraly agreed apon
Just my 2 cents, good luck with your website. Please dont encourage large “crews” of kooks to come paddle out at my break because me and my “crew” will NOT give them waves
I was about to come out swinging, but before I did I checked your website and found that you have removed the surfing in packs for crowd control advice. I commend you for that. You must be a reasonable person. So you’ll maybe understand the following rant.
If I understand correctly, you still see the above situations as times when the “pack” strategy is still valid (the best option)? I can’t speak for all the situations but I surf Malibu regularly. Yeah it’s anarchy out there, but that anarchy is the result of people (like you?) who think that anything goes at Malibu, “anytime ever.” It wasn’t always like that. I still cannot believe it when someone is on a wave, jamming down the line, with no doubts about making the next section, and then someone, usually of far inferior ability, just slides on to the shoulder like it’s OK to do so. FUCK THAT! It’s not OK. Anytime , ever!!! But someow people have this idea that anything goes at Malibu, “anytime ever.” I’m so old school that I never drop in on people, not even at Malibu. And I can still get waves…without bringing 6 friends to run cover for me.
And as far as “your backdoor mediocre beachbreak during tourist season”… Really? Come on! If you have to resort to bringing a crowd to the beach to get waves there, then, I hate to break this news to you- you are the tourist.
Try to understand- bringing a crowd as a way to get waves is not “the best option,” not “anytime ever.”
I also still think you should lose the website. But that’s just me. Maybe I’m becoming one of those sour old timers who go on and on about the old days… but there was a time when it was generally agreed that the only way to learn was “to just go out and do it, there aint no other way.” No surf schools, surf camps or surf science websites. “Just go out and do it.” Don Redondo said that. But you might not know who Don Redondo is. I guess you could always look it up on the internet though. Maybe you could put some of his insight on your website…
I really like this surfing in packs discussion and think that like in any intelligent conversation, there can be more than one correct answer depending on teh situation. Lets consider a few different scenarios where in some cases the pack would not be a good idea or go over well, but in some it might just be the best option:
-Lowers on a 6' SW groundswell
-The local longboarding spot
-Da Hui in the 1970's
-towing into Todos Santos
-your backyard mediocre beach break during summer tourist season
-Malibu, any time ever
-High School surf team practice
Lets not forget, this can apply to groups of beginners or advanced guys and even mixed groups where a few guys rip and a few guys are learning.
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Are you kidding us? OK I change my mind. That's a good way to make enemies at any spot. Beyond a kook. I hope your website folds, too. Mike
Woa! I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding here. First of all, nowhere on SurfScience.com does it suggest that you should block waves for buddies who can not catch waves as well as other surfers. The idea was that if there were 30 guys in the water, and you went out with 5 you knew, or even just surfed a break where you tend to run into people you know, those guys will be more friendly and more likely to let you have waves. When you surf with friends, sometimes they let you take waves that they have the right of way on, because they know you’re in a better position to make a section, or maybe just because they’re a nice guy. The idea isn’t to cheat the system, the idea is to spread the stoke. I’m sorry that my description was unclear and led some people to a conclusion that we all disagree with.
Secondly, thank you for the idea about wave science. That is coming soon.
Finally, the list I posted here on Swaylocks was not my list of places where it was ok to go out as a group. It was a suggested list of different scenarios suggested to start a discussion. Let me once again stress that I do not paddle out in groups, I surf solo, but my site is designed to help others surf better by giving them tips to encourage them to surf smarter and make the most of their sessions. When you’re new to surfing or even going to a new break, it can be intimidating being by yourself. Knowing that someone else in the water is there to say “its ok “if you make a mistake can be a big emotional boost, so much so that you might not make a second mistake. We all make mistakes and we all need friends, it is no different when surfing.
Many of you here on Swaylocks know shaping, many of you are talented surfers, and many of you have stories that I would be happy to buy you a drink just to hear, but the problem is, many of you keep that all to yourself. The times have changed and now there are millions of surfers, we don’t all know shapers, and if every shaper talked to a bunch of surfers, they wouldn’t have any time to shape. Many of us are thirsty for knowledge, stories and stoke, but a lot of the kids out there don’t know where to go to get it. I would hope that you wanted to pass on the knowledge you have acquired and I would be happy to let any of you use my site to do so. I am trying, I think you know that, so rather than complain, why not help me make sure 100% of my info is good and comes from shapers that know what they are talking about.
I’m with llilibel on this one. As I said before, just another site that should have never been created. Don Redondo was right: “Ya wanna know about soifin, kid? Ya soif. Ya don’t soif, ya don’t know nuttin about it.”
And I am sick to death of clueless noobs using the phrase “spread the stoke”. Lame, lame, lame. First, learn to surf. Get a couple of decades under your belt. Then, once you have gained a decent grasp of the big picture share what you know with a noob, one on one. Don’t start a school, give lessons, or create some dumb website full of bad ideas and misinformation.
A guy who cannot surf started giving lessons at one of our local beaches. We had him banned. Whenever I see him giving a lesson, i tell the parents of the “student” the truth about the guy. He doesn’t know how to surf, and endangers small kids by putting them directly in the path of everyone else. The asshole charges 75/hr, and can’t even do a legitimate turn.
I have over 40 years in the water. If a kid is out and not quite getting the hang of things I’ll give him a tip or two. I will not do it for money, and do not present myself as some kind of expert.
This Summer, a thirty-something couple asked me about lessons for their 9 y/o son. I told them why lessons are a ripoff, and related how I and my peers learned. We got a board, paddled out, and took our lumps til we got the hang of it. They asked about board prices, and I realized they could not even afford a used board for the kid. Later that day, I got to thinking about how I was broke and couldn’t afford my own board when I started (age 13, 1963). That set the wheels in motion, as I knew that a few of my friends had stashes of old beaters lying around. I put the word out, and sure enough one of the crew (The Godfather) came up with a grungy old 80s twinfin that needed some TLC. I cleaned it up, fixed all the dings, and gave it a base coat of wax. When i gave it to the kid, he and his mom nearly cried. They insisted on paying me, so I asked for a six pack of beer.
I taught another kid how to glass, this Summer. He wanted to build his own board, so I shared what I know.
There is only ONE correct answer. Bringing your own “pack” is lame, stupid, and disrepectful of everyone else in the water. Just another example of the sheeple mentality that’s all too prevalent these days.
Bill, The best lubricant for getting head up ass is 50% Vasaline mixed with 50% STP!!! Ahui Hou- Wood_Ogre PS I know what Im talkin about , Im one of those experts !!!!