Sways has created an imbalance: builders - designers

General Discussion
1

Well, you could have seen this coming from me.

Just my observation, many of us have turned into good builders as a direct result of the great info exchange here at Swaylocks. But, because we have not built many boards and incorporated the test drive results, we (just me?) are deficient in design skill.

I am a reasonably competent board builder. My boards look pretty good. Strangers have stopped me to say so. And when I stick with the proven design parameters, they ride pretty darn good.

But I am definitely not advancing the start of the art.

It seems to me that I am not alone in this. I’ve seen so many good looking boards by guys who have only built a few boards. And like me just don’t have the design experience. I try not to offer design advice. I just pay attention to the guys who have been at for a while.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. I just find it interesting that there are so many good board builders compared to the number of experience board designers.

And as Herb would say, I am grateful for what I have received. From Sways.

Your thoughts.

2

yeah ive noticed similar(especially regarding myself), ive also noticed that there is alot of guys trying to help ppl but who may not be very experienced which can sometimes make things confusing.

I wonder if sways can make a new account system that gives the guys who are known professionals and have been doing this a long time a special rank/name(something that stands out and is only given to these guys that makes them extremely noticeable), so all the home guys such as myself can differentiate which guys to really pay attention to.Guys like Huie for example, and i know there are many more on here i just dont know all of you so please no offence is intended by me only naming huie.

And no offence is intended to all the back yarders/ home builders, as im in no way trying to take away the talent yall have and the lovely boards yall build.

I just think sometimes the great info these guys try to share with us gets lost in the woodwork unless you specificly know to look out for there posts.

Maybe working out who are the ‘master craftsmen’ is all part of the swaylocks experience and seperates the keen from the not so keen, dunno some more points of view on the matter would be good.

maybe the ‘master craftsmen’ can add their thoughts to the thread.

regards

james

3

I fall into that category too. As long as I stick within certain parameters my boards work pretty good. Good for me, only. I’ve hit a plateau and figure the only way to get better is to spend time observing someone that really knows whats going on. Both shaping and laminating. Kind of frustrating. It’s great having the pro’s give advice on Sways, but I need to SEE it happening not read about it. The other thing I see happening sometimes is an experienced builder gives advice to a novice with 2 or 3 boards and I’m thinking there is no way this guy is going to have the experience or skill to execute this advice. Lots of baby steps. Mike

4

I’ve thought about that a lot myself. In the grand scale of craftsmanship, it’s relatively easy to make a board that is cosmetically good. But that is secondary to the utility of the board, which we all know takes a great many shapes to develop a feel for.

An interesting contrast is the process of learning to surf. I started surfing just a few years before I started shaping. It took me a solid two years before I was a consistent enough surfer that I didn’t feel like a total kook. In contrast, my first three boards (thanks to swaylocks) looked great, and one of them even got a “favorite board ever” from the guy I sold it to. Actually, that’s the blue swirl in my avatar, my first resin color. But now I’m a few years and a few dozen boards later, and every board I make I am more aware of all the stuff I don’t know about board design.

When first started shaping, I was instantly a better shaper/glasser than I was a surfer. Now I’m a better surfer than I am a shaper. It is very interesting how the learning curves differ.

I don’t see anything wrong with it, myself, as there are moderately proficient hobbyists in every craft. The only danger I see is in turning out a couple of good boards right off the bat and then thinking you actually know anything about shaping. “coloring by numbers” is easy, and we all did that to start. But like I said, the more I shape, the more I know I really don’t know anything. :slight_smile:

I agree that some sort of “old master” status would be useful for folks to know who really does have the experience to back up what they’re saying.

5

I’ve never surfed a contest, the north shore, Maverick’s or anything like that so I’m no pro. All I know is that after starting out on a canvas air mat at a beach in Santa Monica many years ago as a kid, I was hooked.

Stand up surfing for me began at age 12 and I’ve been at it off and on ever since. I’d like to think that with over 40 years experience I’d be an expert but that is definitely not the case. Every board I look at, touch, feel, measure or ride adds to my data base. More importantly, every wave I ride adds up as well. Some of the more enlightening rides have been on older equipment that for one reason or another was passed by in the quest for the next “new thing.” There are many design elements out there that work.

It’s been stated by others but worth repeating that before buying or making a board, a person should ride every kind of board they can. Only then can that person decide what works for them. After many rides on that design maybe is the time to start experimenting with a new design hopefully in some sort of logical progression based on what you know will work.

While it may be true that some big advances in design were hatched by backyard experimenters, I think it would be a rare case if someone pulled a wild design from scratch and found that it worked very well. In spite of there being any number of skilled builders starting out, trickier still would be for one of them to hatch a “new” design and actually be able to build it exactly to the design specs.

There are lots of different designs being put out by manufacturers who have done it all. Surftech, Aviso, Boardworks, etc have a dizzying array of designs but none of them are about to sink a bunch of money in a new mold based on a wild ass experiment. That said, there are some cool designs being made even by the big boys in molding. SUP designs are all over the place as well. I saw a curious molded step-deck step-rail (“Gdeck”) shortboard just the other day. Interesting that they would invest in such a mold. http://www.santacruzsurfboards.com/boards/index.php?series=gdeck

Fin plug/box lay outs are allowing advancements in that area. New material technology is being used. Computer design allows precise transitions from one level to the next.

Surely waves that might have been declared “impossible” yesterday are being ridden regularly today. Who knows where it will all end up 10 or 15 years from now?

6

Designing is planning. The more you plan something the better designed it is (usually). Next comes knowing what to plan for which is experience. The more the better. This is usually closely followed by money. How many people have the finances to build many different boards as well as spend all day testing them? This is probably why breakthroughs in surfboard design are rare but definitely achievable by any backyarder if you are have / are willing to spend the time (and money).

7

The stepdeck shortboard and one of the local shaper’s takes on the design.

http://www.beachbeat.com.au/surfbstepdeck.php

8

The thing about design is that some days a particular board design lights up, other days its pretty average.

There is no perfect surfboard design and there is a lot of gray to experiment with. That’s part of the lure of shaping…the unknown.

If you want to become a better designer, make a simple foam core board that you can alter its shape later. Changing fin setups makes dramatic changes in the ride.

This is a successful attempt at changing bottom contour of my latest board, which is also aesthetically very nice. Every alteration makes the board better.

The one thing Ive learned from my fine tuning efforts is that moderation is key. To extreme and things get unruly. Thats why shop rack surfboards look very much alike no matter the shaper. Of course there are exceptions but not for my own personal use.

If time and money were no object I think most of us would be good designers, as long as you have consistent waves to ride…without consistent test rides in good quality surf, its a long row to hoe.

9

Oh for a great waves every day and oodles of cash! That’s a tidy looking outline by the way but what’s the skill saw for?

10
Quote:

what’s the skill saw for?

That crazy craftee cut a wedge out of his deck to flatten an over-concaved bottom. I’ll let him explain.

What will he think of next?

11

Now that’s a sneaky technique! Well thought out. A bold, and intelligent alteration of a boards form. I’m impressed.

12

That crazy craftee cut a wedge out of his deck to flatten an over-concaved bottom. I’ll let him explain.

Actually Mike that explains it pretty well.

Thanks for the comps Bill.

I think Greg’s topic here is a good one. Even tho Im a harcore construction guy, DESIGN still rules. For most builders, alternative construction benefits things like durability, strength to weight, aesthetics.

13

I’d say design is, for the most part, intuitive. You’ve got an idea and then you run with it… if it doesn’t work you try to figure out why. If it does work you can then figure out why. Most things are designed first then engineered and built. Or, designed first then built and then engineered.

For those with craft and construction abilities building or making a surfboard is a matter of just doing it. Established designs are all over to work off of and practical techniques are available so off we all go, working away until we get good at it. But working within the parameters of practical design… that’s a whole different animal. There are plenty of board builders and most follow the pack, which is fine. Not really that many guys out there with unique or individual designs.

If there is a imbalance between builders and designers here… seems normal to me. Besides you usually need to make a lot of surfboards and be a deep thinker before good design ideas begin to cycle.

Great idea for a thread!

D.R.

14

Greg,

You observations are right on the mark. But what you see going on in this Forum is a smaller

version of what is going on in “the industry”

The abilities you mention regarding making designs work are the result of creativity, quantity, and time.

Assuming everyone has the first mentioned ability, quantity (for example, being able to

“test” a design with 60+ iterations over a surf season) is definitely “where it’s at” Time ties in

with experience, though I’m friends with some shapers who have kind of plateaued and just shape

the same thing for 20 years straight. So “Time” should be seen as time shaping and advancing.

(You’d be surprised at the number of industry shapers who do not push themselves- they tend

to be the bitter ones, ha ha)

The significance of being a good designer should not be undersestimated. I’ve seen some fairly

low-time shapers who have incredible insights, yet many cannot explain “why” something works as

it does.

Lastly, the recent development of shaping machines which shape so accurately and allow

design changes that are VERY subtle, has changed the way shapers are learning, and the

rate at which they learn. For example, now a designer can focus on a single element of a specific

shape (like rail tuck, or rocker) and iterate the design. The amount of learning is much less

“questionable” than it was for us back in the 70’s, when we would have a “magic” board but

could not make another one.

In this way I’m finding certain machines are allowing for a great amount of learning. And this can

be passed-on to others- and can be utilized by low numbers, hand shapers.

I should note that handshaping has been the way since the beginning to get “magic” shapes-

Conditions are perfect for a mutation to arise from someone’s garage. I shaped out of a garage

for over a decade, and made lots of crazy stuff.

The danger of sharing “what works” is two-fold.

Many established shapers hold what works as closely-guarded secrets. As you can imagine this

is the very crux to making a demand for oneself and thus, a living.

The other danger is standardizing everyone’s thinking. Think of all the “Picasso” and “Beethoven”

shapers out there, who would have their thinking “re-aligned” (sickening)

For me, the background of over 3 decades of struggling, handshaping, creativity, and new technologies

has allowed me to do things with surfboard design I could not have imagined…

…lots of learning is going on.

George

15

Hi Cuttlefish -

Thanks for that link. Sorry, I was unable to find the shaper’s comments.

FWIW, the basic step deck/step rail design concept has been done before. The Shoe by Con Surfboards comes to mind. Definitely ahead of it’s time… available in one, two or three fins. A guy I remember, Larry Sheflo, used to rip at Malibu on that one. If memory serves me, that would have been 35+ years ago.

What blows me away is that Santa Cruz Surfboards would invest in the molding for a rather far out design like the Skywalker.

“The Shoe” - Image snagged from League of Lamaroos website. Hope it’s OK with the Poobah.

16

Hi John,

You may enjoy this page from their site as well. Scroll down to the classic board’s descriptions and prices.

http://www.beachbeat.com.au/surfboldmal.php

17

I think the G-deck design has a lot good thinking in it. Boards with thinner rails turn better. The step deck allows more volume in the deck and a nice thin rail. I think with the right contours in the rail to deck section, you can also add quite a bit of strength. I hope to try making something like it in the future for an SUP.

As far as being a good board designer or builder. I don’t know too many great designers that didn’t get some help from an experienced builder somewhere during their early years. I also think it takes a combination of the right tools, workspace and experience/knowledge to make a good product.

What I like about making boards is when you’re riding one of your boards and another surfer tells you that you ride the board really well, or when you come in and people say nice board where’d you get it? What I don’t like is this obsessive compulsive behavior to make a better board, or the perfect board for me.

Everyone surfs just a little bit differently and what one person thinks is a magic board may not be the same for others. Having the diversity of shapers around helps to find the right boards. I know guys who try to work with shapers that are about the same size and have a similar surfing style. They seem to make a good team. I also know that some of the best younger shapers are only better than average surfers. The really great shapers are not very young anymore, but their wealth of knowledge and experience allows them to keep at the top of the game. If you’re looking to be one of them, you should ask someone if they would like an apprentice. I know many guys that started out sweeping up floors just to learn from great shapers.

18

Greg,

That is just so true. And it is something i think about every day as a backyard shaper. Backyard shapers want to make a nice and surfable board, but cant really hit the nail in the first 5 to 10 boards maybe. Unless he is copying or has a very specific idea about what he likes. But sill. Fin positioning especially is so demanding, i moved to use the 4wfs. Just to get more learning range.

About the imbalance, all i can say is that lots of knowledgeable shapers on this forum, such as thrailkill, barnfield, blakestah, mike daniels, bert burger, dean geraghty and many others have always shared very specific ideas with myself. This has allowed me to enjoy my boards more than when finding out everything myself. So frustrating when the knowledge is around.

So help is available, thanks to this GREAT site. But even that one time someone told me to ring up Lost and ask for a twinnie placement, i got muy specific placement placing an international call to CA from The Netherlands. So getting up and going is very easy so far, as far as i can judge. I guess it would be completely different if i were an established shaper, but that is st others can judge only.

As of today, i have yet to see shapers selling their knowledge. Something you could do if someone was willing to pay for it. Say you want specific design for big waves, why not pay for a design by Brewer? I would not want to divulge it too easily, and he earns money, just spreading the know how. Everybody helped. Only thing is that you have to pick someone you trust being a good shaper.

And for fin placement, we can always place a yell out to chipfish. So what else does a backyarder really need?

I am very happy so far, no complaints, just compliments to the keepers of this site and all the helpful people out here.

Wouter

19

I think there is an analogy here with the singer/musician vs the songwriter. It’s possible to write a great song and not have the skills to sing it well or play it, in the same way its possible to be a great musician and not be able to write a single unique song.

It’s entirely possible that you can understand enough about surfboards by riding and conceptualising them to develop the ability to create a great design without being able to produce a trued up template.

I cant sing, play an instrument well or write a song.

20

Personally, I’m on the totally opposite side of this one. I have literally 100 new ideas in my head for every board I build and have never built a board simply as a reproduction of another. There’s always something to push - super thick or super thin rails, for example - that I’d never find in a surfshop. Not to mention outlines, fin setups & fin shapes, materials, flex, rocker…

My biggest problems are time & materials. I just don’t ever have enough time to get all these ideas into foam & glass. Half of them get partway built and then stashed away as my brain goes off in another direction altogether. I think I have 3 projects in my racks right now that have been unfinished for more than a year. Others get built and then Frankensteined into oblivion. Others start out wild, but evolve into normalcy as I scare myself out of really stretching something. And even more get built and the immediately given away because it wasn’t as extreme as I hoped.

Anybody seen my Ritalin?