saw this post on the surfermag bb.
an article on www.wetsand.com
thoughts? comments? complaints? seemed pretty interesting to me, the case for polyurethane. but i’d also like to hear the case for EPS, XPS, things like that in the context of small operated, custom surfboard shapers/makers. The article seemed mainly like it was talking about mass production and efficiency…
i’m sure there’s been a post like this before. if there has a link would be great.
, jeremy
Hi JDM -
If you can make it to Plaskett Creek in October we will have some blanks and foam samples to check out.
The toxic nature of foams is a subject worthy of more discussion - both in the manufacturing and shaping processes.
The EPA shut down Falcon Foam in LA about 3 years ago. Falcon was making EPS foam. There have been several people on this site complaining of headaches and dizziness after shaping EPS.
Although MDI is supposed to be safer than TDI foam, I’m not convinced that it is completely safe either.
“Epoxy resins are more likely to cause adverse reactions in workers handling them than do the polyester resins commonly used with polyurethane foam”.
Has this guy ever worked with polyester?
Don’t fool you’re self for one second…
…It’s all toxic as Hell !!!
true!
but it’s still fun to play with! (with appropriate respirators and such…)
…i guess that’s part of the mystery…
, out
most epoxy reactions are allergic. i would rather handle epoxy everyday (I do) than polyester. I only use gloves when laminating, and a respirator when sanding.
Cured epoxy is not much of a risk. If your sanding uncured epoxy (its still curing after 24 hours even though its hard) please use a respirator!
quick question to you shine1,
for amateur board builders who don’t work with resins everyday (maybe say, 4 boards tops a month), is poly resin the way to go? it’s A LOT cheaper …
, out
"Epoxy resins are more likely to cause adverse reactions in workers handling them than do the polyester resins commonly used with polyurethane foam".Has this guy ever worked with polyester?
FWIW, I’ve read the owner and son of a very well respected glass shop post that they will not touch epoxy because several guys in their shop (and maybe the owner as well?) became sensitized to it and got all screwed up. I think you guys know who I’m talking about. It DOES happen. I remember someone on sways has a whole haz-mat suit set up he wears when he uses epoxy.
its been a long time since i’ve been interacting with the surfing community, but werent most of the reactions found to be caused when used in combination with acetone?
i could be very wrong, or that could have just been a myth disproven since i’ve been away.
Yes, I think that’s what Greg L. told us. It’s great they’ve found a potential problem and way to avoid it. But I think it’s also the case that once you have the sensitivity, you’ll always have it even if you keep acetone away from the epoxy jobs this time around.
If you take very simple precautions (where gloves and keep it off your skin), your chance of developing the allergy is nill. The epoxy allergy is very individual (like most allergies).
We have many hundreds of customers all around the world build our boat kits with epoxy. A couple times a year someone complains about allergies
some perspective, I am deathly allergic to shellfish - yet I manage to eat a seafood restaurants and use shrimp for bait. Epoxy is superior polyester in just about every (meaningful) technical measure. I would not let a small risk of an allergy get in the way of taking advantage of this.
As for $, yes it does cost more than polyester. But keep it in perspective; I just ordered a new EPS blank for my 3rd board, it is $104. The glass will be another $40 or so with waste. Leash and plug, maybe $30. Fin(s), another $20 to $75. tools and disposables, $10. Time, I have to value my time at something even though I do it for fun. Those are all fixed costs and Im at about $225 not counting time. Say it takes 3 quarts of resin (with a lot of waste), the cost difference is about $35, maybe less depending on the epoxy. So its 15% more. From a composites stand point, there is no better investment in an additional 15% cost than to use the much better resin.
coffee is wearing off… 
Howzit fluffy, As for epoxy and acetone it’s better to not use acetone since it really doesn’t work that well with epoxy. There are other chemicals that work better for cleaning up epoxy. If you clean up epoxy with acetone your acetone will smell like cat urine and who wants that smell in ther shop. Go hand cleaner works great for getting epoxy off your hands. For other cleaners the epoxy guys can step in with the kinds they use.Aloha,Kokua
Epoxy is superior polyester in just about every (meaningful) technical measure. ...
Except the most meaningful technical measures in a glass shop.
How many man hours does it take to laminate a surfboard?
How many man hours does it take to do color resin work?
How many man hours does it take to do gloss?
Without satisfying these three, and unless environmental regs shut down polyester resins over VOCs, polyurethane will be a permanent fixture in domestic shops. Man hours of labor is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL in domestic glass shops, and epoxy requires more man hours per lam. And doesn’t do color or gloss work nearly as well.
WRT toxicity, I think it is MUCH easier to avoid toxic effects of epoxies than those of styrene and acetone. It is really a no brainer to anyone with a background in hazardous materials. With epoxy, wear gloves, and rinse off after sanding, NEVER clean up with acetone on bare skin, wash epoxy off bare skin with soap and water, dust mask only when sanding, and use a surfboard epoxy. With polyester you need a respirator with an organic filter that has been changed recently, and to avoid all skin contact.
And the long-term effects of styrene exposure are premature dementia in aging. Ask anyone who is over 70 how much it would be worth to them to be mentally 5-10 years younger…
All the arguments change for the hobbyist though…he is more concerned about long-term health and less likely to use a respirator. He is not so time limited, and is not concerned about profit margins on his boards in a way that makes financial differences between poly and epoxy meaningful. He is more likely to care about material properties and what they mean about performance capabilities of a surfboard (even if it costs most). So epoxy is FAR more popular among DIYers.
Either is “perfectly” safe with reasonable precautions that are easy enough to read up on. In the professional environment the few more hours per epoxy lam kill it.
We use plain white Vinegar to clean uncured epoxy off our skin (if it gets on), and acetone to clean it off tools. Vinegar stinks, but its better for you than acetone.
I agree 100% on production, its the same reason 95% of production boat builders still use polyester - epoxy adds a lot of labor. There are only a hand full of boat manufactures that use 100% epoxy in their hull laminates, and mostly they use infusion.
I’ve been using alcohol vinegar too and it’s amazingly efficient.