The Counterintuitive Concept of...................

Well, I have some annecdotal “evidence.”  I built a 7-2 single fin (two of them actually) for this winter.  Rounded pin. I pm’d Bill T. for box placement advice.  He gave the advice and suggested I get warrior 1515 to make a fin for the board.  Gave the ok to use his template and ‘fat fin theory.’ The fin is beautiful, but man is it thick.  I started the board out on a Mikey DeTemple flex fin from Rainbow. A very nice fin. Got the placement dialed on the flex.  Had a couple good surfs on it.  This week I put in the Thraikill fin if I can call it that. Did I mention it is thick?  Comical looking after having the foiled out flex fin. My qualifications for my report: I respect Bill T as  one of my surfing “uncles” ie, an old guy, but I’m no Bill T. ass kisser and don’t agree with everything he brings to this forum. Second, I’m a skeptic by nature, but am willing to give an idea a go. Lastly, I surf a lot better than Tom Curren only with a lot more soul. Ask anyone… The fin works beautifully. I don’t know about all the psuedo science/ good science tossed around here trying to explain a subjective experience.  The fin works great. Accelerates out of turns. I draggless, friction free sensation. Tons of drive. I won’t be putting the flex fin in the board anytime soon. I will be comparing the Bill T. concept fin with other stiff fins I do have, tho. Anyone tells me the fin is too thick or thick fins don’t work I’ll just smile and say, Yah, sure, if you say so.  

Thanks for turning me on the fin Bill.  I’m stoked. Mike

I’d suggest the reason people like some flex in sub optimal waves is that flex introduces a bit of sloppiness to reaction. This softness is very noticeable in good fast waves but less so when the wave has dips and holes in power and the sloppiness may actually give a desired feel in such waves. With stiff fins in not good waves I find I make a lot more errors that don’t happen if the fins forgive a bit more.

Have to get a set of thick fins made up - or maybe just the rear of a thruster?

Here’s the fin I mentioned earlier. I was mistaken its not 9.75. This fin has made every board I use it in perform better. Im sure its flex isn’t the reason why it works so well. Mr T your $.02?

Many many years ago a group of guys including me spent a whole summer experimenting with fins , this was in the sixties , boards were being shortend not by inches but feet , the boards were stll thick and single finned , we used what we called jamb boxes to change fins . I wont bore you with all the details but we tried many different shapes and sizes and materials for fins , we found that most guys were useing too much fin and there was no positive advantage or positive gain to be had useing too big of a fin.   We did a lot of experiments on fin flex , going to extreams in fin length and flexy materials , the further we pushed the extreams of the flex the more it could be felt when surfing , but we all agreed that the flex had no positive advantage/gain . We then moved in the other direction to stiffer fins , to achieve the stiffnes in some materials we had to make the fins thicker , BINGO . Smaller than the average fin at that time stiffer than the average fin at that time and thicker than the average fin at that time  HAS a positive advantage/gain . Anyone can try a thick fin ( make it , about 5/8 - 3/4 inch at the base depending on the size of fin and the size of board ) the difference is not subtle its obvious from the moment you start paddling . Carl Pope made thick hollow fins for single fin boards , if you can find one try it . My experience was with single fin boards , I am aware that there are people that believe that a flexy fin is integral to their board design . 

OK, I know this is a DIY site, but are there any commercially available sources for “thick” fins like those being discussed?

  None that I’m aware of.       The uninformed masses don’t  buy thick fins, because the uninformed pro’s don’t use them, or promote them.     The lemmings just follow the ass in front of them, right over the cliff.

You can get some interesting “thick” fins over at Roy’s Website.

Noel’s spit fire fin is pretty thick probably wrong shape for you’all though.

Morey offered a hollow thick foiled board with his swizzle I have both

or

make your own with some 3/4" thick marine ply

my brother had some 1/2" thick G11

 

experimenting is fun for personal knowledge

but in the end it’s just surfing nothing more

if you take it more seriously than that

you aren’t dealing in reality

or IMHO just marketing something else here like the rest.

[quote="$1"]

 I posted a response about the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow – African & European – a while back in a thread started by Everysurfer… 

 

[/quote]

Just out of interest were the swallow’s in question carrying coconuts? 

“but in the end it’s just surfing nothing more if you take it more seriously than that you aren’t dealing in reality” That- And whatever happened to "Different Horses for different Courses? ( and jockeys?) What works for a portly 69 year old in slow Cali or Texas on a fat 9’6 isn’t suited for a skilled 20 ~ young 'un in barreling Indo or Tahiti on a thin 6’0 . Believe me you know you dont want to be at the “top of the wave” with extra fin drag at Teahupoo or Restaurants trying to find the speed! LOL ! But the point is maybe you do want to: on slow So Cal, Texas or Florida waves, trying desperately to find some average speed to keep your fins from “stalling” on those sloooow turns and cutbacks?

 I myself would taylor fins to the waves, and would use thin fins on hollow speed waves, and fat fins on slow fat or bowly waves.

So go’ 'hed- and epoxy that fat beer bottle back there as a fin in slow slop to average out your speed on that thick 9’6 so you dont (once again) get left behind on the first turn or yak one more time on that slow cutty. But just dont think its a universal answer for all waves and all conditions, and please for god’s sake do everyone a favor and keep those slow drag bucket busses the f^ck out of the lineup at the fast premier spots around the globe, thanks. :wink:

Chubbie’s (http://www.chubbiessurf.com) offered some very thick fins but I haven’t been able to access their site for months so I don’t know if they are still available.

Tubedog,   READ POST #193-----Do you really think places like Sunset, Pipeline, Makaha, Laniakea, and Waimea, are slow?     Well, maybe Waimea after the drop, but certainly not the others I’ve named.     The outright fastest boards I’ve ridden had well foiled, thick fins, in the range of 9% to 12% of the fin base.      Thick and thin, are relative terms.    The camber of the foil is the ‘‘secret’’ to foil efficiency and speed.      Well formed, large waves in that 15 to 20 foot range, all behave pretty much the same.    A board/fin combination that works well in Hawaii, will work well anywhere else in the world.     Your statements above, indicate that you don’t know how little you know, about the subject at hand.

No.  They are “unladen.”  No offense intended.

For your benefit:

A technical answer regarding swallow air-speeds (although, there appears to be some disagreement among experts):

http://style.org/unladenswallow/

Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an** Unladen Swallow**

Hashing out the classic question with Strouhal numbers and simplified flight waveforms.

By Jonathan Corum

Nov. 17, 2003

After spending some time last month trying to develop alternate graphic presentations for kinematic ratios in winged flight, I decided to try to answer one of the timeless questions of science: just what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? 

What do you mean, an African or European Swallow?

To begin with, I needed basic kinematic data on African and European swallow species.

  South African Swallow

(Hirundo spilodera)European Swallow

(Hirundo rustica)

Although 47 of the 74 worldwide swallow species are found in Africa,1 only two species are named after the continent: the West African Swallow (Hirundo domicella) and the South African Swallow (Hirundo spilodera), also known as the South African Cave Swallow.

Since the range of the South African Swallow extends only as far north as Zaire,2 I felt fairly confident that this was the non-migratory African species referred to in previous discussions of the comparative and cooperative weight-bearing capabilities of African and European swallows.3

Kinematic data for both African species was difficult to find, but the Barn or European Swallow (Hirundo rustica) has been studied intensively, and kinematic data for that species was readily available. 

 

It’s a simple question of weight ratios

A 54-year survey of 26,285 European Swallows captured and released by the Avian Demography Unit of the University of Capetown finds that the average adult European swallow has a wing length of 12.2 cm and a body mass of 20.3 grams.4

Because wing beat frequency and wing amplitude both scale with body mass,5 and flight kinematic data is available for at least 22 other bird species,6 it should be possible to estimate the frequency (f ) and amplitude (A) of the European Swallow by a comparison with similar species. With those two numbers, it will be possible to estimate airspeed (U).

In order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

Actually, wrong. By comparing the European Swallow with bird species of similar body mass, we can estimate that the swallow beats its wings 18 times a second with an amplitude of 18 cm:

SpeciesBody massFrequencyAmplitudeZebra Finch13 g27 Hz11 cmEuropean Swallow20 g≈ 18 Hz?≈ 18 cm?Downy Woodpecker27 g14 Hz29 cmBudgerigar34 g14 Hz15 cm

Note that even the tiny Zebra Finch flaps its wings no more than 27 times a second while cruising.

If we ignore body mass and look only at bird species with a similar wingspan, we can estimate an average frequency of 14 beats per second and an amplitude of 23 cm:

SpeciesWingspanFrequencyAmplitudeBudgerigar27 cm14 Hz15 cmEuropean Swallow≈ 28–30 cm≈ 14 Hz?≈ 23 cm?Downy Woodpecker31 cm14 Hz29 cmEuropean Starling35 cm14 Hz26 cm

By averaging all 6 values, we can estimate that an average European Swallow flies at cruising speed with a frequency of roughly 15 beats per second, and an amplitude of roughly 22 cm.

Skip a bit, Brother

Last month’s article on The Strouhal Number in Cruising Flight showed how simplified flight waveforms that graph amplitude versus wavelength can be useful for visualizing the Strouhal ratio (fA/U), a dimensionless parameter that tends to fall in the range of 0.2–0.4 during efficient cruising flight.

For a European Swallow flying with our estimated wingbeat amplitude of 24 cm, the predicted pattern of cruising flight ranges from a Strouhal number (St) of 0.2:

 

… to a less efficient 0.4:

 

If the first diagram (St = 0.2) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be roughly 16 meters per second (15 beats per second * 1.1 meters per beat). If the second diagram (St = 0.4) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be closer to 8 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.55 meters per beat).

If we settle on an intermediate Strouhal value of 0.3:

 

We can estimate the airspeed of the European Swallow to be roughly 11 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.73 meters per beat).

Three shall be the number thou shalt count

Airspeed can also be predicted using a published formula. By inverting this midpoint Strouhal ratio of 0.3 (fA/U ≈ 0.3), Graham K. Taylor et al. show that as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying animal is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude (U ≈ 3fA).5

 

We now need only plug in the numbers:

 

U ≈ 3fA

f ≈ 15 (beats per second)

A ≈ 0.22 (meters per beat)

U ≈ 3150.22 ≈ 9.9

… to estimate that the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is 10 meters per second.

Oh, yeah, I agree with that

With some further study, it became clear that these estimates are accurate, though perhaps coincidental.

An actual study of two European Swallows flying in a low-turbulence wind tunnel in Lund, Sweden, shows that swallows flap their wings much slower than my estimate, at only 7–9 beats per second:

“Compared with other species of similar size, the swallow has quite low wingbeat frequency and relatively long wings.” 7

The maximum speed the birds could maintain was 13–14 meters per second, and although the Lund study does not discuss cruising flight in particular, the most efficient flapping (7 beats per second) occurred at an airspeed in the range of 8–11 meters per second, with an amplitude of 90–100° (17–19 cm).

And there was much rejoicing

Averaging the above numbers and plugging them in to the Strouhal equation for cruising flight (fA/U = 7 beats per second * 0.18 meters per beat / 9.5 meters per second) yields a Strouhal number of roughly 0.13:

 

… indicating a surprisingly efficient flight pattern falling well below the expected range of 0.2–0.4.

Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.

What is the capital of Assyria?

For those looking for additional answers, the four capitals of Assyria were Ashur (or Qalat Sherqat), Calah (or Nimrud), the short-lived Dur Sharrukin (or Khorsabad), and Nineveh.8 The ruins of all four ancient cities fall within the modern state of Iraq.

 

References

Thank to everyone who has written in with comments and questions. Responses are posted here, along with a revised estimatefrom Dr Graham K. Taylor, and somealternate theories.

  1. Chris & Tilde Stuart
    <em><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679451218/" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters</a></em>
    
    MIT Press (1999)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>G. L. Maclean
    
    <em><a href="http://www.lincbook.com/pi/862.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa</a></em>
    
    John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Eric Idle, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, Michael Palin
    
    <em><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Monty Python and the Holy Grail</a></em>
    
    Python (Monty) Pictures Ltd. (1975)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Avian Demography Unit
    
    <a href="http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/stats/adu/safring/results/0493.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">SAFRING results of the European Swallow (<em>Hirundo rustica</em>)</a>
    
    Department of Statistical Sciences, University of Cape Town (2002)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Graham K. Taylor, Robert L. Nudds, Adrian L. R. Thomas
    
    <a href="http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v425/n6959/abs/nature02000_fs.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Flying and swimming animals cruise at a Strouhal number tuned for high power efficiency</a>
    
    <em>Nature</em>&nbsp;**425**, 707–711 (October 16, 2003)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Email correspondence with&nbsp;<a href="http://users.ox.ac.uk/~zool0261/" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Graham K. Taylor</a>&nbsp;of the University of Oxford Zoology Department (October 22–23, 2003)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Kirsty J. Park, Mikael Rosén, Anders Hedenström
    
    <a href="http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/204/15/2741" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Flight kinematics of the barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) over a wide range of speeds in a wind tunnel</a>
    
    <em>The Journal of Experimental Biology</em>&nbsp;**204**, 2741–2750 (2001)
    
    &nbsp;</li>
    <li>Ashur Cherry
    
    <a href="http://www.assyriannation.com/history/assyrian_history.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(51, 102, 153);">Assyrian History</a>
    
    <em>The Mesopotamian Encyclopedia</em>&nbsp;(2001)</li>
    

I’ve been making my own fins since I’ve been making boards.I won’t limit myself to one or another type. In surfing,  as in life there is no one single “silver bullet”. There are too many variables in breaks, swell, and ablilities for simply one of anything to be the go to. Tailoring is the name of the game. You wouldn’t take a .22 cal single shot to a firefight or a .458 Win. to a plinking session. But if you add a little club soda or Seven Up to the Kool Aid…

Use what works for you.

All the best and deference to Mr. Thrailkill.

Hell, I was born in '58. Whaddo I know??

Just for yuks.

My head hurts.

In response to stoneburner:

 

 

I just saw an ad in the new Surfer mag that Rip Curl has a new GPS watch.  Several features, one being top speed.  Interesting.

Warrior1515 makes fins. Thick fins, too.  Mike

…5/8" thick… works unreal …fast…smooth…responsive.

Warrior1515 came down to Ewa to surf when he was in the islands and I had a chance to see his Thrailkill inspired board. He did a nice job, but he had a reverse d fin that day, and I thought it seemed like too much fin. He did a really nice job with the wood work. There’s some real talented homebuilders here.

It’s been cool to meet the Swaylocks guys that make it to Oahu. I’ve been surfing with JT1 every now and then and I see Melikefish (Jason) but we haven’t surfed at the same time yet. BB30, UncleD, Foamdust, Keith Melville, Resinhead and others are all friends from Swaylocks.

 

“Do you really think places like Sunset, Pipeline, Makaha, Laniakea, and Waimea, are slow?” Relative to modern Indo and Atoll waves, yes, and you’d know that if you ever rode them. So the equipment needs are different. You dont want a draggy fin on these waves- it’d slow you down and you’ll be passed up like you are dragging anchor, which you are. You are forgiven for not having experienced this, but if you ever surfed Maalaea you’d know even THAT Hawaiian wave is different and in a whole different league than the other Hawaii waves you mentioned (Sunset, Pipeline, Makaha, Lani’s, and Waimea.) so fin designs that are optimal for turning on those waves are not going to be optimal for low-drag full speed runs such as Maalaea, Rifles, P-Pass, or Deserts. "A board/fin combination that works well in Hawaii, will work well anywhere else in the world. " “Work Well”? How well is “well”? Well enough? Some think that a noseridder with a thick fin works “well” in Hawaii, so would it work well then at Rifles? How “well” ? The answer is “not very” You are limited by your lack of experience with these faster newer waves being ridden. “Your statements above, indicate that you don’t know how little you know, about the subject at hand.” Really? Who’s statements really indicate they don’t know how little they know, about the subject at hand ? I’ve actually taken thick finned singles out at all the Hawaiian breaks you mentioned when they were the rage and they sucked back then, compared to the super thin fins Diff made us which went way faster. Night and day. Conversely Its pretty obvious you havent tested your “more-drag-is-faster” theory on these faster waves I’ve mentioned. But its definitely fun and easy enough to tinker, test new things, feel what works in different waves in different conditions with different designs, and learn and progress. There is likely no universal answer to making more waves or going faster, there are so many variables, and probably no magic bullet that you can put on your board that is going to help you speed up and make those sections you are failing to make now, especially by increasing drag. More drag can be a fun thing, to help get deeper- thats what the young pros are doing at Teahupoo and other breaks, dragging hands arms and ass hard to stay as deep as possible. Their boards are too fast to score the highest scores deepest in the barrels. Some are dislocating their shoulders in an attempt to slow down. Hey- maybe they should try textured draggy fins to help them get deeper? Maybe you are missing the boat here based on old paradigms and should market your draggy fins as a way for riders to slow down and get deeper barrels? :wink: