WRT Bert and fins, I think I recall him saying that he never rated 2 or 4 fins when compared to 3 and 5 or 7! loss of grip/drive when transitioning from rail to rail?
For what its worth, that firewire hardly looks like a ‘Bert’ board.
I’ve a similar opinion. I like to pivot off the rear fin in a vert attack. I’m totally lost when I take a quad vert. There’s this transitional moment that is very awkward. The better quad riders I know don’t quite go vert, they stop a bit short and do a big slide from one rail to the other.
that is the one thing that no one apparantly heard from Bert which was as important as the whole tech unveiling.
So far I haven’t seen anyone other that Bert and a few others realize that with these new out of the box materials you really need to think about out of the box designs.
If you read Bert’s post in the widetail boards discussions you’ll see that he’s been pushing both his short and longboard concepts to keep up with his material discoveries for a while. And while there are a few compsandos clued in, most of us are still making the same board using the new and inappropiately wrong materials and methods. This is also something I don’t see from Firewire, Soloman, Surftech, Boardworks, Aviso, Kolstoff or Hydroepic which are basically like what George just said the standad popular models(al clones as Griff like to say) in a new dress.
Of course, the marketing guys took over. They said give surfers something they already like in a board shape and fin design…just give them something colorful, superlight, and more durable, and they will gobble it up. And they did. Selling people on the same old surfboard with a better look and a much lower weight is an easy sell. Trying to sell them fat fins and wider tails and thinner rails and flat bottoms and concave decks…well…let’s just say some of those are good across the board, some aren’t, and the product would drift too far to be in anything but a niche market. And that is EXACTLY what the marketing guys at Firewire are trying to avoid like the plague. Lighter and equally functional ALWAYS sells surfboards.
If you read Bert's post in the widetail boards discussions you'll see that he's been pushing both his short and longboard concepts to keep up with his material discoveries for a while. And while there are a few compsandos clued in, most of us are still making the same board using the new and inappropiately wrong materials and methods. This is also something I don't see from Firewire...
It must be killing Bert to have to de-evolve.
It’s kind of like being in a band. You don’t mind selling out as long as you’re getting “your” music out to the masses. But then the record company steps in and says you’ve got to play the music we tell you to play, because we did the research and the public isn’t ready for “your” music. And then just to keep you from jumping ship, they throw a bunch of money at you and promise that “someday” you’ll be able to play "your"music. But that “someday” never comes.
Wow, in regards to the fin performance observations:
"…but on the rail fin, the water very close to the board is laminar and moving very fast…that is EXACTLY where you want a long fin chord. There’s certainly still a boundary layer, but I can tell the difference at even 1/2 inch cutaway in lose drive. "
This is so true and I found it out with keeled fish way back when, then kind of strayed from this awareness when tri fins became poplular. I was definitely following design-wise when thrusters took over. The subtleties of base length and drive need to be appreciated, and it is also true the smaller chord for the center fin definitely performs better. I am presently experimenting with this, so it struck a “chord” (no pun intended) with me. I am also messing with the aspect ratio on the rear fin…
The fins of the pictured board could possibly be optimized further (with all the due respect that the board is a work-in-progress). The fin/hull combo will undoubtedly spark the next permutation in spite of the “new material clones” starting to hit our shores.
There is a good chance that some small builder is going to pull the bottom card out of that house of cards so carefully crafted up to this point…
…How do you explain a “major re-tooling change” to your investors so you can keep up with small group of no-names building “wierd” boards?
I’d beg to differ - Firewire have the marketing upper hand. They have strong differentiation now. In photos, the balsa rail sticks out like dogs balls and its the balsa rail that is a key part of their tech. I flick through surf mags in stores and I’m seeing Mick Fanning and Bobby Martinez riding them. The look of the board is very distinctive, and in the tiny minds of surfmag readership, that look is now associated with Taj and Mick and Bobby. I always thought the s-core marketing was great. Having the distinctive blue board that is instantly recognisable in ads and Firewire have that too.
It’s the other guys are going to have trouble differentiating because they have muddied the picture with tech that doesn’t have a clear marketing point of focus - Rusty has got Flexlite, Surftech and EPS - but they are indistinguishable in pics from regular boards and the tech doesn’t say anything new. Surftech do not have a reputation for performance surfboards, to reposition that brand is going to be impossible without contest results (they should have launched T2 as a seperate label) To overtake Firewire , a new entrant will have to have better or the same performance, contest results and a distinctive look. I think CI and Burton have the best chance, Lost - not sure. Lost might actually be a good partner for Firewire if they want to liscence their tech.
Its ironic Bert and GL have this disdain for surf biz marketing, but the way their boards look in magazine ads is going to have a big impact on their success. This is all academic if they don’t sell - but surfers who ride performance boards have a herd mentality - they all ride what the pros ride. If enough pros start popping up in mags and contests with balsa rails, you could have a tipping point scenario where suddenly anything with a stringer down the middle is a kook’s board. And the herd will pay not to look like kooks.
Once Cobra and the rest of asia figures out the basics of this technology, the battle of pure numbers will have been lost
I think you’re underestimating the depth of Bert’s knowledge, and how so many of the realities of a composite board are different than you’d expect them to be. I’m not saying that they will not be able to do lookalikes, but they are going to either have weight or durability issues. Bert has a huge advantage of knowing where the edge of destruction is and to design around it. Unlike a traditional board composites need to be a patchwork of materials in order to work. Its been said before in this thread - Firewires are not Sunovas. As the pros start to expect more Bert will be able to move toward his Sunova ideals (and I’d bet these are patented) and give them what they want while other might not be up to the challenge.
like the airbrush comment,when you see these boards on the northshore arena from waimea to sunset and they are doing what no one else has done before than maybe they will have some credit,the idea of so and so riding the boards make no sense put any board under slater and he will probably outperform 90 percent of the surfing population,no disrespect to berger but let him come to the northshore and test his metal against the best many are called few are chosen.something said in gladiator i think ?the gallery is fickle the gallery is rome or something like that… aloha
Firewire has alot of ground to make up against the 800 pound industry gorillas and with out some form of differentation it’s going to be an uphill marketing battle until the money runs out.
Ground as far as recognition for sure against someone like Surftech. I get the feeling Firewire would not release the “best” they produce right off the bat. I think they’ve got an ace up their sleeve for later. Getting a rider like Taj onboard is major compared to the other composite builders. But surftech copying the parabolic stringers means something.
ike the airbrush comment,when you see these boards on the northshore arena from waimea to sunset and they are doing what no one else has done before than maybe they will have some credit,the idea of so and so riding the boards make no sense put any board under slater and he will probably outperform 90 percent of the surfing population,no disrespect to berger but let him come to the northshore and test his metal against the best many are called few are chosen.something said in gladiator i think ?the gallery is fickle the gallery is rome or something like that… aloha
the best what?
board builders?
or surfers
i thought it was an aussie that designed the thruster
and an aussie that designed the modern shortboard planeshape
isnt the world champion from florida!
firewire boards have plenty of environmental credits already (more that most on the north shore)
they are also most likely harder to break than any other board on the north as well
i could use the same reasoning at any place where theres surf!
in fact most surfers in the world prolly couldnt give a toss what happens on the north shore
waves~~~~~~it may not be your cup of tea or mine maybe,but i am sure there is a wave in that small stretch to give you a thrill ride.most great shapers and surfers have tested their wares there at some point in their careers,a few from down under simon, terry f., mr, to name a few, greenough was a californian.i wish it was true about no one giving a hoot, but judging from the crowds every winter like it or not it is the testing ground for all ideas and possibilities.and lets not forget the legendary hawaiian shapers and surfers gerry l ,reno a, bk,aipa, george d,and on and on they all rode their boards and proved em to get a board from these guys in their prime was gold and still prized to this day.so much hype over these “new boards” but funny how there maybe only a handful in the islands.the arena waits… aloha
(Much of the hype youre referring to resides in these pages)
So,
according to your logic, in order to succeed in the market place, new surfboard techology MUST be proven on the North Shore.
Fair enough.
Please provide us with a pic of your North Shore Surftech quiver. Dont have any cuz you make your own? Then please provide us with a pic or name of a NS surfer who owns a quiver of Surftechs.
most surfers in aussie surf small waves anyway and dont know about hawaii or who surfs there
the main holiday destinations being indonesia and fiji
unless firewire make mini guns (which im yet to see)most of there boards are designed to be ridden in waves from the 3 to 6 foot range
i can see why the north shore would be a good testing gound other than durability
besides that the west coast of NZ produce huge powerful groundswells akin to hawaii(its just the water is 12 degrees c.so no tourists)there are plenty of other big waves testing grounds in the world.
while i have respect for the big wave surfers of hawaii
theres alot going on in other places without the localism and asssoiciated hype
the only witnessness being sheep and a few seagulls
I think the North Shore has a firm reputation as the gathering place in the late fall for the most talented surfers in the world, who come there to finish the pro season and/or compete in the Hawaiian triple crown. There is no doubt that this is the pinnacle of the surf year in the industry.
Of course waves and designs come from all over, all you need is a wave and a board. Bert’s designs were inspired by west oz power, a place at which the population density and swell exposure are insanely good.
But to prove any design requires only riding it under your own feet in decent waves…Firewires are proving to be lighter, more durable, better in flex, and otherwise equivalent to the industry standard Pu/Pe technology.