The Future of Foam?

Industry Talk
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We use petroleum to make foam, but I’m pretty sure that we’re using by-products and that the main use for petroleum is fuel. Either to make fuel for transportation or the Energy sector. The Energy sector uses the waste product called fuel oil. It’s a heavy, tar like product one step above the stuff they pave roads with. Foams are made from other by-products that are pulled off crude oil during the refining process.

I don’t know what is worse, sucking oil out of the ground for fuel or cutting all the trees down for all the wood products we use. Cutting trees has direct impacts on a variety of animals, and the environments where trees are “logged”. It is a big reason why we are contributing to climate change. The cutting of all the tropical rainforests has a huge impact on the world’s climate, and air quality.

Tree farms are not necessarily good for the environment either. We clear cut huge areas of the natural habitat to create sterile zones of harvestable trees, or planations of highly desireable plants.

The styrofoam they make for food products is a totally different product from polyurethane surfboard foam. The total volume of PU surfboard foam made world-wide is probably a drop in the bucket compared to styrofoam used for other products.

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If that is true why not look to develop a better material than foam, which has been in use for nearly 50 years.  Why add to the bucket at all?  Surfing is a unique sport that is basically off the grid requiring zero energy other than the surf board.  Why mix into such a basic and beautiful leisure the corrupt and violent industry of oil?  *I have a buddy who loads oil trains in Colorado and several of his co-workers have been killed on the job, this is no joke.  Surfing and shapers can aspire to be outside that realm of human destruction, and really it is on the shapers to advance the craft, just as the previous generation moved away from logging our planets rain forests for their craft in turn for manufactured foam, which made sense at the time when little was known about foam.

 

Agave is one of many viable solutions and alternatives to oil based surfboard production.  Agave is not a tree but a plant, and is only useful for surf at the end of the plants life when it is merely a perch for birds to rest and eventual organic matter for the soil.  It can be farmed or collected wild from nature.  I collect it wild from vulnerable areas like creek beds, where it is also more accessible than cliffsides.  For me it is local so it makes sense for my production.  The process uses a fraction of the amount of energy used to mill trees (from falling, transport, milling) and yields zero waste because the sawdust goes to the worms and garden.

 

 

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I wonder what the chemistry behind the varial stuff is. They probably won’t tell, but does anybody have any ideas?

Foam is here to stay if you ask me. What’s not here to stay is the current synthesis methods, blowing methods and recycling methods. I did a project on this for a class in my senior year, and I was a chem major so it was in depth on the chemistry side of things. People are working to reduce the energy cost associated with synthesizing ethyl benzene, which is the precursor to styrene monomer. For example, I saw a one pot synthesis involving toluene, methanol and a proprietary catalyst that goes right to styrene monomer with more mild reaction conditions and temperatures. That synthesis also has a much higher selectivity for styrene, so it’s more efficient, and the waste product is hydrogen, not CO2 or something of that nature. The H2 can be used for energy to power the reaction by burning it, which is cleaner than burning hydrocarbons. 

I also read a paper about an interesting process to depolymerize EPS back to styrene monomer. The used a high powered mcrowave and old used tires, oddly enough, to cause depolymerization through pyrolysis. They got a 66% yield, and considering this is in the experimental stages I’d call that decent. You can use the styrene monomer again, rather than having to make more. 

 

 

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For practical purposes agave is not viable.  Great idea but falls short of supplying the mass market.  It’s not the easiest raw material to work with either. Just ask guys that have used it a lot.  

It does produce a very pleasing product if you are willing to dedicate yourself to it.  I suspect the compression it yields (like balsa) is impressive just using one layer of 4 oz cloth.  But as I said before… unless raw materials suppliers… NOT shapers, are willing to secure the raw material and can guarantee its consistency (many times the plants harvested net widely varying results)  acceptable for production for such cosmtically and structurally demanding products such as surfboards, then I doubt we will see this material introduced into the marketplace due to widespread distribution.

 

 

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There is more options coming on board, working on one at the moment. Think of a structural waterproof EPS that can be hand shaped.

About 12-18 months away for commercial… but happy so far, fingers crossed the pros like it!

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Very accurate assessment in stating the supply of agave blanks is non existent nor able to fill any (potential) market demand.  If you build it, they will come . . . .

I work with agave on many levels including surf, and I equate agave as a viable material to the use of bamboo in its potential market appeal.  20 years ago few people knew about bamboo other than panda bears eat it.  Then cam the bamboo flooring and eventually seemingly endless uses of the material in daily life as an alternative material.

Agave is very much the same in its utility potential but no one has yet build the market by building the public knowledge and promoting its use to such a level that it is seen in the marketplace.  In time, agave will be a common material like hemp or bamboo because it is a natural alternative and low in energy cost to create products compared to plastics.

 

It may start with surf and branch out from there.  I use it for many applications in the house and in design.  People really like my works before they know what the material is because it yields functional products that are beautiful and space age density to volume confusion. 

 

Dude, its a matter of time till agave hits the market.  I intend to make a go of it.  I am in a situation/space with the potential to mass market agave blanks.  I am still learning the material after 4 years of working and observing the plant (not a tree).  And the public is willing to listen and try it because it is a practical material without a use (here).

Today people relate agave to tequila in similar fashion to how bamboo was related to pandas 20 years ago.  20 years from now, hopefully, agave will be what bamboo is today - everywhere and a useful alternative to what already exists.

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We’ve been a few years in the works at perfecting this board. NO FOAM! Much stronger than the foam boards. No more pressure dings. Not 100% “green” but pretty close to it. Spring of 2016 we should have them for sale. Check us out, when they become available go beat the crap out of them!

www.lucidsurfco.com

 

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Interesting comments from the last several posters on this thread.  Question: how quickly does Agave grow in comparison to some of the fast growing Bamboo genus, or geni (whatever the proper plural is for genus)?  Sidenote: many of the bamboo flooring materials have hideous toxic adhesives in them - there is an effort to get nations to join  an organization that requires them to comply with safer methods, but that has been met with limited success.  

As far as bamboo, balsa, agave or some other natural product replacing the wide used TDI (Toulene di Isocynate) or MDI (Methyl di Isocynate) based foam, that’s not likely to happen in our lifetime.  EPS has vastly imroved for surfboard blank use since the widespread incorporation of EDRO/IDRO machines producing it, and the recyclability of the material is pretty darn admirable… still, a considerable % of surfers don’t prefer the ride on such a core.  

The other materials and methods some of the posts hint at will only come to light when proprietary rights are secured and they have more fully developed and been covninced as to the feasibility of pursuing a Business Plan and founding of  acompany chasing after the almighty buck or pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  

Good input from fellow Swaylockians on this thread -  I never even thought ‘it’ would have a life!

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It takes on average 7-10 years for a agave to mature from ‘seedling’ depending on the variety.  I have found agave americana grows biggest where I am living.  It grows as a rhizome under the ground like ginger or banana tree and many pups grow around the base, kind of like clumping bamboo.  One agave can turn into hundreds in a matter of one life cycle so beware it is very invasive under the right conditions.  Once the plant dies it makes the flower, which is used as wood.  The flower also grows thousands of pups and millions of seeds.  

The agave farm is th future for western usa.  Mexico, Australia and Brazil all have major biofuel programs and industry using it.The advantage of agave is it requires very little energy input to convert flowers to wood and then blanks.  No chemical processes.  It can be done by hand.  And the waste can be reused as fuel or compost, although it is very acidic for the soil.

Its only a matter of time until Exxon and others catch on.  It is an incredibly useful plant like coconut, bamboo, cannabis and others.  Its the the original foam and solar panel.

 

 

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Agave sounds unique as a plant and definitely has the ability to produce an aesthetically beautiful product.  I have heard it can be difficult to work with, particularly compared to the ease of today’s polyurethane and expanded polystyrene - which both materials can be recycled.  

I wonder if the same care in shaping agave has to be exercised as with balsa, which, without proper vacuum and/or mask protection the fibers will swell inside your lungs if breathed in while shaping?  (Note:  moisture in your lungs will cause balsa particles to swell causing discomfort and impaired respiration).

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You bring up a good point in taking precautions when working with agave, although I would take the same care with foam or wood and wear a mask and have good ventilation.  Personally, I would choose a lung full of organic matrial rather than coating them with microplastics.  Agave dust can cause breathing problems because it is hydrophilic like the eucalyptus mentioned.  Agave is a water magnet, so it makes sense it would attract water if inside the lungs.  I wear a full face mask like Hizenberg when working it because it also dries my eyes out.  I dont have proper vaccum system in my shop, yet, and the dust is everywhere and particles are always suspended in the air.  So a vaccum and particle filter would be ideal but down the road.

Working agave is difficult but not impossible and a lot more aligned with foam than hollow wood construction.  For me the difficulty is in the glue lines, which are hard like glass in comparison to the soft, foam like agave core.  So when shaping the less dense material is taken off faster and more easily than harder exterior skin or glue.  I would equate it to driving a manual transmission to an automatic one.  Surely, manual is more complicated and fun to use while the auto is less complicated both achieve a similar end.  If one only learned and experienced driving with an auromatic then transitioning to manual may sem daunting and difficult.  Although, if one is learns proper technique for driving a manual then that unknown is readily mastered.  

Don’t be scurred.  Find a piece of agave that is dead and dried out and play with the material.  It will blow your mind.  It is like no other wood or material I have come across and it is very easy to shape, sans the hard skin which should be removed and the glue up lines.

 

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hi guys
i read this topic and is very interesting,but im also a foam producer im not in worldwide distribution,
im a just a small… but what you should be pay attention to call a foam green or not
is about term ecofriendly , is the type of blowing agent used, before was the cfc and wasbanned, now we have the hcfc and in 2-3 years will be also world wide banned ,to understand blowing agent need more than 9 years to dissolvein the air ,some other just few days but have higher price,sometimes foam producer always look to save money to make more profitable the products or maybe they dont know about chemistry or they just using a formulation provided from big chemical company .

now all the polyols are coming from crude oil…can be algae or palm oil , so many company write we are green using algae.or whatever … and bla…bla…
but polyols are from crude oil.

what is dangerous for who use the blanks ,like the shaper and who preshapes blanks is what type of catalyst been used to get the foam.
you will see many blanks have stronger odor some less,that is amine odor catalyst… and is not healthy…also here there are new generations of catalyst
with lower odor but much more expensive…and inside the foam … rigid foam have around 90 percent closed cell…inside there is gas… and most of them are not friendly…

so basically the main game of big company selling the safer and greener products for more $$$.

okei be safer and green as possible ,but shaper always need first the quality of the foam…foam makes the quality of a surfboard , client want always light but strong
so the foam make the difference.
but until now nobody make a test comparative of the foam.probably because nobody want talk bad about other company,also test are not cheap to do.
if some want i will do… i have all type of foam of major producers…

i always compare my foam to understand if quality is good or poor or where i should improve compared to otherfoam producers
i always do this test

cell size.
weight density
compression
elongation
perforation
discoloration
flex and spring test
flotation test resistance
absorption of water.

to be honest at moment the best formulation i have ever seen is surfblanks in australia
super strong formulation… is very hard but also have a weight density of 58.82 the highest compared to other.but
makes the board stronger even with only 1 layer on deck…
compared to us blanks or bennett have lower weight density but also lower mechanical resistance.
after flex and spring i will not mention,so someone have better strenght other more flex and spring…
thats make the board feel more alive… but some surfer looks for durability…they cant understand the feeling of flex and spring of the foam.
we make a test with a small machine making 5000 repetitive small bend …around 45 degrees
and after we record every cycle of 100 to see how it goes…

so to judge a foam quality is not easy …

and polyurethane is not obsolete is the most advanced product for
structural foam …for quality-prices…always new chemical arrive on market
after is to us to find the correct use and formulation…to get the results we need… if you need foam cheap? strong? light?super flex? fast rebound?
not turn yellow fast ,super white…

now tyred to typing…
sorry for my bad english…

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Any comparison info between foams is very useful, tell us more!

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…after all your test you see what I have been preaching here that Surfblanks is the best foam, but mostly in this forum are from USA so they still think that have all the best materials.
Also only Surfblanks Brazil have the lightest of the surfboard blanks (a density called premium) I have a bunch and hold pretty good.

-on the other side I tested several small factories foam and never ever obtained such a good formula.

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I think EPS is a far cleaner foam than poly…for starters , it’s completely recyclable into new EPS stock …it’s predominantly fire proof these days , and the toxic blowing agent has been removed from the steaming process …in Aus , it’s less than half the price of an equivalent poly blank , and also half the weight . For years now , I have been using a locally produced water-based epoxy for both glassing EPS and finish coating composite surf craft…I still use some poly blanks , but the glassing is farmed out , so my workshop is generally free of flammable and toxic containers …still love traditional PU/PE craftmanship , which I hope will never fade away , but the pressure on mass producers of such craft have resulted in too many corners being cut and durability dropping through the floorboards - sure , they look slick in the showroom , but they were ( or should be) built for the salt water environment , not the air conditioned showroom environment…to each his own.

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I will pay extra for Varial type products - I have seen people run over Varial boards with their trucks - Who would do that? LOL

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Best foam available is Keahana. We have HPPS, pps foam blanks, it Fixes all problems with poly and eps starting with its water resistance 

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Checked out your website etc.  Interesting approach.   Not something for a guy like me, but definitely workable for “one offs” and beginners.  The whole packaged kit, premeasured etc. is good marketing.  Over here in the U.S. everybody’s an expert and they want to do everything on the cheap.  They all think they can shape and glass a board that looks better than a custom $1200 board from a local shaper and surf shop.  So they probably wouldn’t watch your videos, nor follow instructions.  Lowel.  PS – kiddin a bit;  but now I know what a “Sash” is and learned a new use for what we call over here a “dust pan”.  Wish you sucess.

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The very last photo, B&W . . . I recognize it from the original Sufboard Builders Yearbook, which I still have(!). Man, am I dating myself!