It’s still real easy to make improvements through mistakes while computer designing. It still takes a human to imput on the computer. I shape all my own boards on a giant CNC machine that we built ourselves. If human mistakes are the future, then I am the future! I love my robot! Resin Research Epoxy and Bert rules! Giant congradulations to Bert! I can’t wait !
Love,
Delbert de Von Pumpernickel
the future is a present. open it at your own risk the glories and the horrors exist in immediate coincidence. I for one am not horrified until the war department uses it to build a bomb or the regulatory board makes hand made illegal or the 9 year olds in power tell me I dont count…yea and verily the genius invested in technology… as I have said so many times … was the death of John Henry but it won’ be da death o me… my cognitative genius as it is ,is inspired by scraps of junk on the ground and of this junk I am inspired to make beautiful things. like compost on my mango tree not planned but manipulated just the same but with a reverence sometimes missing in higher minded techno apps…congradulations to the technilogical wizards of the kastle keep .if they stop by I 'll take em for a ride on a spirit form to test their metal and conceptual reality…each one is completly different,unlike the Winchester rifle’s interchangeable parts… thanks bert,your friend ,ambrose…summer on the gold coast?life is a casino… place yer bets
to me the future of surfboards is like the future of violins.
I can buy a cheap beginner one for a couple hundred bucks.
I can buy a better one that’s still production line stuff, but with good craftsmen involved.
If I really wanted a good one, it would be hand made by a master.
Ya know a) I didn’t read anywhere that Bert said he wants one, or will even use it to pre-shape his EPS. and b) most of us will still buy either a custom, hand-made board or make our own.
I took Bert’s post like one from someone just back from an Auto show. Holy Crap! You shoulda seen this Ferrarborghini - 19 1/2 cylinders! You shoulda seen this full-production Lincillac - seats made from leather from Tibetan Oxen! Wow - you shoulda seen this little Hondoyota - its only $330, gets 84 mpg and they can make 4000 per day.
The boards from this machine are like that little Hondoyota. Might dent market share, sure. Might cause a few short-term layoffs. But would I ever want one? Do I really have to ask?
Chalk it up to a post of interest and let it go.
I Think it’ll be more than a dent in the market place. The surfing industry, like any other business, lets demand & money dictate the way boards are manufactured. and there is no way in hell we can be as efficient as the machines. So most likely there will not be many people making a living solely on shaping 10 years. The youth in the next generation, the consumers, will have a different view than ours, as far as what makes a board special or valuable.
Progression is inevitable. Equipped with the latest Computer aided design softwares, hydrodynamics analysis packages, designers will come up with new concepts that are gonna rock the boat of traditional surfboard shaping. We can see the beginnings already.
Since most boards will be machine shaped, another way to separate yourself from the competition will be to have awesome looking boards. Maybe soon there will be a way to print your own design straight from your computer onto the cloth, then just glass it? who knows. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if machines totally take over shaping, we’ll figure out a way to stay involved in surfboard making with new creative ideas.
LAst of all, like cars and computers, the prices will eventually come down because of fierce competition and automation. Some surfboards will be so affordable, quivers will possibly become disposable, use for the summer then recycle.
I’m not saying I like it, but things will change… a lot.
…future…meanwhile, other kids down the street in vacant lot where Harbour’s surf shop once stood, sitting amongst the red survey sticks that outline the new carcraft order center, are madly hacking on a laptop, they giggle, yeaaa.
… while at the KIA QPS 3000 window the kids,wide eyed, nose pressed against glass, whatthe’! out pops your board , wait! “I didn’t order a … " (perfect rendition of a 9’7” Mickey Dora “da cat” model, rolls off line, complete with pressure dents and dings… .
Custom, popout, hand shaped, machined, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
Does having been a planned baby versus an unplanned baby shape whether as adults we prefer things to be repeatable or not? Just a wayward thought.
Its just sad that no one anymore sits back and questions things and really thinks about whether or not we need these “things” in life.
If you do that you get labeled “grumpy”.
The surfing industry, like any other business, lets demand & money dictate the way boards are manufactured. and there is no way in hell we can be as efficient as the machines. So most likely there will not be many people making a living solely on shaping 10 years. The youth in the next generation, the consumers, will have a different view than ours, as far as what makes a board special or valuable. -Omar
The threat in all this comes not so much from relatively affordable CNC machines but from potential Mega-Machines which take a hell of a lot of capital to purchase, concentrating the production into the hands of a few. This isn’t a problem in general when times are flush or the activity is popular - the problems is what happens to production during downtimes and especially during something as severe as recession.
Progression is inevitable -Omar
Progression is great. Change isn’t always progress, however, and it usually takes time to tell the difference. Hence uncertainity.
Some surfboards will be so affordable, quivers will possibly become disposable, use for the summer then recycle. -Omar
Great for the environmentnot…it’s practically that way now anyway though.
In a previous thread daddio proffered the term “principles”. It seems to me that if some of the corporations and/or power structures in surfing actually operated in such a manner so that everyone could comfortably believe that principles were in fact in play, we all could relax a bit. Individuals who put forth opinions or stand on their principle seem to get crucified with the “rant” or “grump” term…Swaylock’s being one of the last outposts of free thinking in the surf world. The fact is that we see so little in the way of principles in any business that we have no reason to trust any newcoming surf business enterprise to not screw the most people they possibly can just to make a buck.
Sure, everything is going to change in time, and maybe fast. Technology isn’t really “the enemy”, although changes it brings will no doubt cause some problems and adjustments for some more than others. The thing to fear is the same old beast - the bean-counting humans behind calculators.
oh Bert, what have you done? told you to keep your mouth shut. its all over the top anyway…
we have computer controlled surfboard shaping machines since the late Michel Barland realized his vision in the early 80’s. I met the master and his creation and we all owe him a lot of respect. but time went on and to me it is very clear that custom boards are the future of surfing so all I wanted to do is a little, simple machine that can make custom boards as I could see the faces of those who make a living with shaping.
I like the comparison to a violin as it contains everything to get the argumentation right. surfboard do not have the price level of violins and they certainly do not have the longlevity of a Stradivari. and violins do not come as custom violins out of mass production. but imagine you can buy a violin of the class of a Stradivari, custom made for you for the price of an off the shelf mass produced one? and when you can play better you can afford a new one customized to your progress? and what do you think will be the collectors value of the first completely machine shaped custom board that came off the APS3000 in lets say 50 years? it has been custom designed by Murray Burton and in the moment it is owned and surfed by Mike Rickard; this will help to track it down when the time comes…
the APS3000 is very simple, Bert loved that. no “whitecoates” needed. as she is very “simple” I had to patent her cutting and holding system and wait with her distribution till I had the funds to defend and protect the patents. she makes 10 times the same board with the same ease and in the same time as she makes 10 totally different ones. so, why make 10 times the same? Bert certainly loved that. and she makes them out of the material of your choice, with many stringers or none.
as she could not shake his hands she also can not design and create. that’s where the shaper comes in with his ideas, creativity, knowledge, inspiration and genius. see, the trade stays alive. the job description of a shaper will change but the job will be more rewarding, trust me. by the way, she has a few buttons that let you decide how much and what part of the board you would like to finish off by hand.
I am running a little shaping studio here at the Gold Coast managed by Jim Tomlinson, the design guru. we have direct contact with many of the big names in shaping (as well as the lesser big but equl important ones) and we see the impact of the APS3000. most ghost shapers had to look for a new job in the industry or become “real” shapers. good or bad, you decide. but we see for example (there are many more, trust me) the very detailed approach of Rodney Dahlberg, the happy face of McCoy after 30 years of shaping, the never ending inspiration of Murray Burton (now without the stress-wrinkles), the developping power of Greg Webber and the can’t be stopped shaping energy of Nev Hyman. we see the evolution of Veral Dave, Skye Burton, Scott Crump and Woody Jack and the ease of living of those we are not allowed to mention and in general the enormous increase in quality as well as the reduction in customer waiting time. we also have many customers all over Australia, even as far as West Australia, Victoria or South Australia, we do not see or meet them often personally but as they send us new orders we assume they are happy with what we do.
you still do not like the machine? I have no problem with that and if you need help or assistance in getting better with your handshaping I give it to you when needed and wanted even if it could enable you to beat the “beast”. Swaylocks serves exactly this purpose.
still an “enemy” of my concept? brace yourself for a big fight as I have already sold many machines all around the world. they will pop up like mushrooms within the next few months. I recommend that you use the technology available and enjoy, throw your wisdom in the basket and come along for the ride and to a handshaper I say: lift your bar, be more demanding on yourself, deliver top quality and you will have a good chance…
and to you, Bert, I say: watch out, I will come over to WA very soon to set up a machine and I will track you down and knock you on the head. I had a quiet and peaceful life…
most ghost shapers had to look for a new job in the industry or become "real" shapers. good or bad, you decide.
You may be the only person I’ve ever heard who actually thinks there is a question to debate here! The only one that thinks there might be some “good” in a real live person, a surfer (nearly always), losing his job in the industry and craft he loves just so that the maker of a machine and those who buy it can increase their own percentage of the profits of surfboard creation.
I’m thankful most of us know there ain’t a damn thing good about that no matter how perfect it makes our surfboards.
I bet you’d be surprised how many people out there would rather see several guys making little bits of money from the creation of each surfboard than see one guy making a lot of money from each board because he eliminated the other guys’ jobs with machinery.
Clearly it’s an amazing creation that you should be proud of from a technical standpoint. But you really need to come at the human costs a bit more seriously, a bit more apologetic. Right now it sounds like you don’t care that people are being put out on their ass so you and the label owners can put money in your pockets.
Surfboard technology needs to be approached differently than other consumer goods. With other items, we might be able to say that machine advancements will bring costs down, allowing more people to buy the items and therefore growing the industry and keeping the same amount of humans employed in the field as before (just in different roles). But no real surfer living anywhere near civilization actually wants there to be more people buying surfboards out there. We want there to be a finite market for surfboards. That’s one reason why the surfboard market hasn’t become like the snowboard or ski industry already and why we’ve kept 1950s technology and methods this long. There is no desire on the part of surfers for surfboards to be made more quickly or more cheeply or for them to become like other consumer goods purchased by the masses. Because surfing is not, and cannot be, for the masses.
In life we want as many options as we can…in the end it is up to us to decide as individuals, based on our own morals, which ones we want to take and which we want to discard.
Personally, I like hand shaping sometimes, with nothing more than a surform and some sandpaper. Without a idea in mind and just seeing what developes. That’s sculpture to me.
Other times I have a specific design in mind and it’s somewhat complicated to shape and I’m exicted and can’t wait to try it. That’s when I go to the computer and shape it with the machine. It will come out exactly how I envisioned it.
My point is, it’s fun to hand shape…and it’s fun to shape on the computer. Don’t descriminate until you try it.
quote…growing the industry and keeping the same amount of humans employed in the field as before (just in different roles). … unquote…
i cant as many cannot get enough quality glassers /sanders/ repair staff to keep up with my work… plenty of jobs in the industry with good pay… but not the “status” easy job as shaper/finisher…ive offered jobs to shape finishers who have been put out by the machines… none of them will glass/sand etc… they have gone to be forklift drivers and grumpy old men with half the pay they could of had glassing or sanding…
the boards i make/design with the aps3000 are better than any thing ive done before… the quality of my shape is very consistent … i finish everything i design… my costs have not changed… my alternative time other than in a dust filled pit has increased…my customer orders have increased dramaticly thru word of mouth and satified customers… i gladly offer jobs to people who want to do quality work within the industry…do i have any regrets …?.. no, im happy, my wifes happy to have more time with me… my customers are smiling and my prices are the same…
miki had a quiet and peaceful life …come on dude , you cant expect to create the worlds finest shaping machine and then proceed to keep your quiet and peaceful life …isnt it obvious everyone would be banging on your door …
miki your genius has been unveiled , intelligence is a curse …
benny was right , i was simply blown out by what i saw , just like seeing any other new product being unveiled …
in time to come i also hope to be a user of the machine applicable to my construction techniques , that was part of the excitement for me , no other machine was ever capable of delivering what i needed in a machine …
this machine will cross the boundries of construction techniques , miki i hope you realise that the creation of this machine will also disrupt my quiet and peaceful life …so maybe i will be back in queensland to track you down …
either way , miki’s machine needs a designer to make each individual shape …
some machines need an hour or more to set up for each different board design , what if youve got 10 different custom boards to shape , thats 10 hours plus actual cutting time ???
i watched miki’s machine pump out boards everyone different to the last , each one a custom designed board , and the machine could deal with every one of them , just load and shape …
sorry miki to cause any inconvenience, its not a matter about what i have done , im just a wide eyed observer with a loud mouth , its more a question about what have you done ?
regards
BERT
Most of the board makers here in So. California are already using the shaping machines, with there production shapers finishing off the boards. DR
Congrats Miki, congrats Bert! Bring on the robots! I’m listening to Kraftwerk right now! It should be required listening while on this thread. I built my own 7’x14’ shaping robot and I don’t plan to hand shape as far forward as I can see unless the electricity goes kaput. Listen to Computer World and We Are The Robots by Kaftwerk. Rich Harbour and F. Dave both said it, they can’t find enough humans who want to build surfboards. The robots are a shapers best friend. The robots won’t take anyone’s job. They will allow forward thinkers like Bert the ability to bring advanced composites to surfboards so people like me can actually buy one of his boards without getting on a decade long waiting list and paying a million dollars. I just want to ride one of Bert and his robot friend’s boards.
Kling Klang Dynamix
Delbert de Von Pumpernickel
Ok her is my 2 cents worth.
In our effort to acheive perfection WE made the machine,like it or not its here. I will always try to build something new ( old to most of you). But what happens when the people with the idea’s can’t afford to compete and move on to a different line of work. Slowly we we loose them and we loose alot more. Why,so someone can make more money. I watched hd and lowes run small hardware stores out of business and then they decide they don’t want to carry something and then its no where to be found,get it.
In the mean time the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
So lets go surfing in the water with the sewage in it that we couldn’t bother to keep clean.
Keith
I reckon Feraldave didn’t say he was getting richer, just getting more time with the wife. Thanks to our friends the robots, shapers have more time to get their hump on. Robot owners also allow garage shapers to use their robot services. Robots also won’t die of cancer from the free-radicals released from TDI emissions, for those shapers who insist on using TDI based PU foams. Robots aren’t full of prejudice nor are they pessimistic and only occasionally grumpy.
Love,
Delbert Pumpernickel
I understand and accept where you are coming from. please try to come to the real world where surfing is exploited by everybody who sells something to (mainly young) people. Coca Cola, Pepsi,Mac Donald, shoes, cloth and whatever you like use the image to drive their profits and thus increase the number of surfers, crowd and customers. as almost all of these have no interest or even connection to what you call the surf world or surfboards, the image soon could be the floater and the product come from china. there you have it, no more jobs. the custom board machine does not exploit, it supports the evolution and does so with very little negative impact.
if a ghost shaper looses his job I think it is the best thing that can happen to him as well as the industry. all ghost shapers I talk about I know personally, one of them is now my business manager, another is now my customer doing his own brand successful (and with a lot more pride) and others found new jobs in the industry. none is complaining about what has happened, none is mad with me, most like the development, all still come for a chat. ghostshapers are what drives production fastest to cheap labor countries with the beancounters being the successful in the loop, not the people who do the work. with a machine that can create real custom boards you have a weapon you can fight the devils that threaten our livestyle and you stay competitive and give us all a chance, in the end it is the consumer that makes the decission and I throw a spanner in the works of many people who try to damage what has such a big value to us. the machine leaves the money to be earned to the people doing the job, it just takes a little of the shapers and it is a part they easy can compensate for.
my last machine was a 5-axis copy shaper capable of 12 copies per hour and I personally pulled her to bits even it had a serious market value. many thought I am crazy but I had a vision what damage this thing could do. today it is harmless, who wants 12 of the same anyway.
the people involved in the APS3000, from the manager, the software engineer to the cleaner (that’s me), have long and strong roots to the surfboard industry. we are not money driven and offer a specialized high tech product for a ridiculous amount where the intention has always been to make it available to as many shapers as possible. we try to make a living and enjoy what we do. we are attacked by “big industry” who use second hand car sales methods to beat us but we are strong. and if you do not believe me, come and have a beer with me and you can find out first hand.
trying to keep a lid on surfing will not work, it has always been come and go. in the moment we are up in the sky and tomorrow we will be nowhere again. I live here at the Gold Coast and can see 500 surfers at Snapper but within a couple of hours I can find more and better waves with nobody riding them. I have traveled the world in search of wind and waves and many of the paradises I found are overrun today. take Tavarua for example, I had it for 6 months to myself while today it would be difficult to afford a weekend there. sad? no, just a reason to look further, to continue the search, to be more grateful and more respectful for every new place we find. we do not have the right to deny others the access to the sport.
I reckon Feraldave didn’t say he was getting richer, just getting more time with the wife. Thanks to our friends the robots, shapers have more time to get their hump on. Robot owners also allow garage shapers to use their robot services. Robots also won’t die of cancer from the free-radicals released from TDI emissions, for those shapers who insist on using TDI based PU foams. Robots aren’t full of prejudice nor are they pessimistic and only occasionally grumpy.
Love,
Delbert Pumpernickel
What free radicals ?? How much exposure ? a half dozen boards a year a concern ?
Minimal free radicals, but heck, cut any if you can. Nothing worth worrying about. Try Greg’s new blank. I’m just trying to say something nice about robots. Just trying to celebrate Bert’s stoke.
Love,
Delbert Pumpernickel