Take that same thick, floatie shortboard and foil the tail a little thinner and it will improve performance in terms of wave catching in more powerful surf. Pull in the template in the tail and it will work even better. Boards like this will allow you to take off under the lip instead of from the lip. Thin the rails and you get that “tubed on takeoff” effect going by setting your rail as you jump up under the lip.
I just did a board for a guy for exactly those conditions.
Nice turn of phrase, NJ. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. With thinner rails and tail, less volume at the priphery, and thereby less floatiness, you don’t get sucked up the face on takeoff. Or as you so aptly said, “from under the lip rather than from the lip”.
As others on this thread have suggested, if you spend enough time on any board to get it fully wired, you can do anything you want on it. It’s just easier on a board that’s better suited to the condidtions. And, as Corky Carroll is fond of saying, “easy is good”.
Great topic. One time I was riding a 6’4" and swapped boards for a buddy’s 5’10" - The shorter/narrower/thinner board really caught waves better. I notice that often narrow nosed boards are better for late take-offs. My guess is that less surface area allows the board to move faster due to less resistance, overcoming the loss of buoyancy/ paddling/planing. So I’m thinking less surface area is more helpful than more volume in catching waves— to a point. Surviving late takeoffs on a longboard seems to be a lot harder than the same stunt on a shortboard, but a longboard can get in earlier from outside. My wife’s 6’0"x18 1/4"x2 1/8" catches waves better than my 6’5"x19"x2 7/16" when it’s a late takeoff. This is an area I need to learn more about.
"But I like having an inkling of knowing WHY it’s
true. It might help me to make better boards."
I like the way you think…
I am really a dunce when it comes to planing dynamics, so I am mainly a viewer and not a contributor for this one, but what everyone is saying makes complete sense in my head so far… In a larger, more critical, plunging wave, a late takeoff is made easier with less foam volume under you, as you tend to get ‘caught up’ less into the very-quickly-rising face; less ‘forward’ buoyancy force, as KC mentioned. I think he has the key to the whole thing right there, thinking about the horizontal component of the buoyant force in the rising wave face…but it is a hella complex thing to think about, with so many variables…
JSS
Got no physics to contribute - but this discussion is brilliant.
I’ve noticed the differences you all refer to - thick board - mushy wave , thin board - hollow wave - yes i agree!
Oh no, somebody woke-up Mike, could it have been the … (wait for it…)
PS
Sorry Mike, couldn’t resist.
Nice solution, and your point is well taken.
Let’s come at it from another direction, sort of the flip side of what burnsie introduced.
Though not true for all, surfers have evolved other ways of pulling off something that has a similar effect, at least during steep take-offs.
When you arch your back as you paddle for a wave, and then maybe arch it a little more as you continue, you shift your weight, or for purposes here, redistribute your mass. (Arching your back accomplishes some other things too; biomechanical and physiological. But for now, it’s the redistribution of mass that is of interest.)
You don’t change your overall density, but you do change your density distribution. Of course, what you can achieve by arching your back, or any other changes in posture in general during take-off, is limited.
I believe your design solution can probably be taken a lot further, of course it may require re-learning how to take-off, or how to paddle around in general. Separating the paddleboard from the surfboard is one of my pet interests. But that (that last sentence) was another thread.
A recurring well understood dilemma - does technique drive design or design drive technique, though it’s rarely phrased as such (probably for good reasons?)
kc
If I am following this discussion, at 220 lbs, I should be riding a 5’10 x 18 1/4 x 2 1/8 chipper and I will be catching more waves and a lot easier than one of my usual boards, say my McCoy Nugget at 7’2" x 21 1/8 x 3 1/8. The later the take off the more likely just about any board is going to catch the wave because at some point you are going to be sitting in the spot where you are going to get pitched by the wave and if the wave has enough energy to move you then it will. Granted a lower volume board will probably handle the late take off better, but I’m not buying that if I’m on a potato chip sunk above my armpits that this is going to make it easier to catch waves, unless you are sitting in the exact spot where the wave is about to pitch. A brick versus a cork. There is more to it than buoyancy or lack thereof.
And at what wave size are we talking here? Under head high? Even when the surf is only pushing up to double overhead, those low volume chips are not catching waves very well. Why do you grab your bigger board as the surf gets bigger? Because you need more buoyancy? It was only a couple feet overhead this past weekend and I saw those chips scratching for waves and the wave just passed them by.
Also, guns generally are not low volume boards, unless of course you are surfing some absolutely perfect wave like in Indo where you can get away with a smaller board
That’s an inside, inside joke. You have a good memory.
Why are you trying to hijack your own thread?
I’ll get you for that one, as soon as I find my copy of ''Practical Jokes to Play on Engineers".
Mike
If I am following this discussion, at 220 lbs, I should be riding a 5’10 x 18 1/4 x 2 1/8 chipper and I will be catching more waves and a lot easier than one of my usual boards, say my McCoy Nugget at 7’2" x 21 1/8 x 3 1/8. The later the take off the more likely just about any board is going to catch the wave because at some point you are going to be sitting in the spot where you are going to get pitched by the wave and if the wave has enough energy to move you then it will. Granted a lower volume board will probably handle the late take off better, but I’m not buying that if I’m on a potato chip sunk above my armpits that this is going to make it easier to catch waves, unless you are sitting in the exact spot where the wave is about to pitch. A brick versus a cork. There is more to it than buoyancy or lack thereof.
And at what wave size are we talking here? Under head high? Even when the surf is only pushing up to double overhead, those low volume chips are not catching waves very well. Why do you grab your bigger board as the surf gets bigger? Because you need more buoyancy? It was only a couple feet overhead this past weekend and I saw those chips scratching for waves and the wave just passed them by.
Also, guns generally are not low volume boards, unless of course you are surfing some absolutely perfect wave like in Indo where you can get away with a smaller board
Hey feralseppo,
I’m thinking the type of wave in question here is one where you have no choice BUT to take off late. This is where a “chippier” board will come in handy. Notice the -er ending on chippier. Not saying you should drastically reduce your volume, but instead a slight drop in volume, and maybe a redistribution of the volume you keep. A wave that jacks and has the bottom suck out will make you a part of the lip, as opposed to getting underneath it and making the wave, if you’re riding too high in the water.
Silly started a thread a little while back about boards that “hang in the lip” for just a second too long causing you to miss the wave because by the time you get down the face the wave has passed you up, or worse yet, you become a part of the lip. Average surfers in the past ???maybe 5 years or so??? are so stoked on volume, after having been liberated from 6x18 1/4x2 1/4 by the re-emergence of the fish and what-not, but there are certain types of waves that the extra volume is just dead weight so to speak.
I personally like to ride everything, and when you keep an open mind you ride a lot of boards that don’t work and some that do (for certain wave types)
I would love to see a thread on design parameters that assist in taking off under the lip easier, and getting down the face faster. Not necessarily in huge waves, but just heavy ones.
Every design feature has a peak on a curve. We’re all aware that this is but one variable in a very complex marix of variables, so taking any one design feature to an extreme hobbles all the others, both theoretically and practically.
No… you won’t catch more waves if your board is grossly undersized, because other elements of design won’t work the way their supposed to.
No… getting pitched is not taking off (Slater, Fanning, Irons, et al. excluded!).
No… you can’t catch a double overhead slab on a chip.
We’re talking about relative differences in volume distribution within realistic limits.
But, you’re last statement, “unless of course your are surfing some absolutely perfect wave… where you can get away with a smaller board,” has merit, in which case you’re talking about not just any “smaller board,” but a board designed for that specific wave. Toe-in boards have freakishly small volume, but they don’t have to “catch” waves like us paddle-in guys do.
You grab your bigger board when it’s bigger because bigger waves have a higher speed, and you need to get your board up to speed to catch those beauties. Chips don’t let you do that so easily. Longer boards have more glide even when paddling (and more weight), and they have lower volume tails (pins or rounded pins) which let the tail sink into the wave deeper, both on takeoff and when riding. But the majority of the volume/density is still much further forward.
So the concept is still the same… Getting that tail area deeper into the meat of the wave for takeoff.
Barnfield ,Berger,Cole,Griffin would be interested to read your ideas but not as a debate only as points of reference from different directions and eras of shaping and designs.With all due respect… aloha
Sorry Patrick but this post makes absolutely no sense to me. I’ve noticed in the last year or so at Sway’s that a certain orthodoxy has crept in whereby boards of lower volume catch waves (or certain kinds of waves) more easily than higher volume boards. I’ve seen guys claiming that a 5’10" chip paddles better than a 7’2" funboard.
Common sense, observation and 30 years of experience all scream at me while I am reading this : “that is total BS”.
People have bought in examples of floating tubes etc etc to back up there arguments but a few moments of rational thought should eliminate this (becoming) pervasive myth.
Try taking a 6’0" (of any nose width) out at Sunset or Waimea and tell me it catches waves better than an 8’6" or 9’0". It doesn’t.
Try it again in beachbreak against a (much higher volumed) nugget and tell me it catches waves better than the nugget.
It doesn’t.
More volume and hence buoyancy equals easier wave catching. That can be empirically proved very easily.
If we are talking slab type waves where a late take-off under the ledge is the only option (and lets be honest there are very few of these being paddle-surfed by the vast majority of surfers) then the limiting factors are board length and rocker curve. ie my 8’0" will still catch these waves more easily than my 6’9" but it simply won’t fit into the extreme wave face angles involved. Thus guys paddling into 10 foot Chopes can’t ride much more than 7’0" in length because longer boards don’t fit the wave curve as well (although I have seen longboarders paddling in there).
The best board I have had for easy take-offs in slab type waves (Jakes and Tombstones) was a wide-arsed, floaty 6’3" McCoy. The thing paddled like a shark and this extra acceleration at the point of take-off gave me a half-yard advantage at take-off compared to lower volume boards. A half-yard is often the difference between getting barrelled off your nut or being bounced off the reef.
Lower volume boards have undoubted performance advantages for towing-in in huge waves due to greater control of the planing surface and lack of drag, but for paddling in, volume is king.
Steve
Fair enough - there is more to it all than buoyancy or lack thereof.
It’s a choice. With a little skill, you can do wonders with a buoyant board. But the nature of take-offs will change with buoyancy. The reasons being those I initially sketched out. If you don’t buy the scenario I outlined, I really do want to know what you think happens.
The keyword here is take-off, because that what I hoping to get some discussion on – the impact of different design strategies – what mattered when.
And yeah, different conditions require different strategies, in terms of skill (technique) and if you’re so inclined, different designs too. I’ve no excuse for being less precise about conditions.
I’ve never been 220 lbs, but I have sat on chip up to my armpits and the only place I was able to catch a wave was on the peak, just before it started to throw, on both small and large days. But that’s me – I hate stroking for waves.
kc
Sorry Patrick but this post makes absolutely no sense to me. I’ve noticed in the last year or so at Sway’s that a certain orthodoxy has crept in whereby boards of lower volume catch waves (or certain kinds of waves) more easily than higher volume boards. I’ve seen guys claiming that a 5’10" chip paddles better than a 7’2" funboard.
Common sense, observation and 30 years of experience all scream at me while I am reading this : “that is total BS”.
People have bought in examples of floating tubes etc etc to back up there arguments but a few moments of rational thought should eliminate this (becoming) pervasive myth.
Try taking a 6’0" (of any nose width) out at Sunset or Waimea and tell me it catches waves better than an 8’6" or 9’0". It doesn’t.
Try it again in beachbreak against a (much higher volumed) nugget and tell me it catches waves better than the nugget.
It doesn’t.
More volume and hence buoyancy equals easier wave catching. That can be empirically proved very easily.
If we are talking slab type waves where a late take-off under the ledge is the only option (and lets be honest there are very few of these being paddle-surfed by the vast majority of surfers) then the limiting factors are board length and rocker curve. ie my 8’0" will still catch these waves more easily than my 6’9" but it simply won’t fit into the extreme wave face angles involved. Thus guys paddling into 10 foot Chopes can’t ride much more than 7’0" in length because longer boards don’t fit the wave curve as well (although I have seen longboarders paddling in there).
The best board I have had for easy take-offs in slab type waves (Jakes and Tombstones) was a wide-arsed, floaty 6’3" McCoy. The thing paddled like a shark and this extra acceleration at the point of take-off gave me a half-yard advantage at take-off compared to lower volume boards. A half-yard is often the difference between getting barrelled off your nut or being bounced off the reef.
Lower volume boards have undoubted performance advantages for towing-in in huge waves due to greater control of the planing surface and lack of drag, but for paddling in, volume is king.
Steve
I would have to say that volume certainly is not king. The distribution of volume is what matters in how a board will catch and surf waves.
Obviously when we compare a 6’0 to an 8’6 we’re going to see better paddlability from the 8’6, but the loss of maneuverability between the 2 boards is HUGE as well. For most of the waves you used as example, for sure paddlability will be king. They provide enough ramp for a higher volume board to get down the face before the lip throws.
Chopes is the one example where we agree that a shorter lower volume board is king because early entry is not an option.
In my experience shortboards with a refined rocker line catch waves just about as easily as a Pig of the same length, except maybe in grovelling conditions.
I believe the issue at hand is not what type of board catches waves easier, but what board (floaty vs less floaty) makes the takeoff easier on steep waves. We would all agree that longer and floatier works better on sloping and mushy waves. It is the steep, critical takeoff that’s of interest, the kind of wave every beach break gets on some days. Less float, up to a point, seems to make getting pitched much less likely and easier in such conditions. Agreed?
Distribution of volume is what matters, more than total volume. I agree.
Rocker’s another matter, and might trump volume distribution.
In my opinion buoyant boards paddle easier and therefore can catch waves earlier. The downside is if a board is too buoyant it won’t sink in and bite in turns. This is commonly described as “corky”.
Bobbing around on top of the water more can make catching and riding mushy or weak waves more enjoyable. On steep critical waves this quickly turns into a negative feature. Making the bottom turn is as important as catching the wave (at least it is for me). Thin is in for sticking turns at speed. Also on pitching slabs you can catch the wave on anything if you’re willing to position yourself under the lip.
yeah its pretty sublte
volume is what gets you going
its way easier to catch waves with volume
i especially notice when its big and not barreling
that extra volume gets you in early
i think on a slab wave that is say 6 to 10 ft faces then you you can design for that wave
but you sure will do okay on a fat tailed high volume board as well
as steve point out with his nugget
i got a bro who surfs hell slabs on a 7 6 mini mal
but it does have a bit of tail rocker and is a pulled in tail
i think just a flat rockerd thick tail and lift the tail out a bit as lip pitches
and you dont get that little extra push
but you can compensate from better paddle speed
but maybe thinner tails
but still wide is okay
Well I actually agree with all that’s said so far. I think our differences are that we are focusing on slightly different things. First is catching the wave. Seems like we agree that mushy waves that you take a number of strokes to catch and hopefully get into early are probably more easily caught with volume. You aren’t using the wave power so much as paddling power. But when it comes to late take-offs on the kind of wave where it seems you can only catch it late, my own experience is that less volume up front and more volume in the back facilitates catching the wave power. Less volume up front translates into less surface area and so less resistance to moving forward, and more volume in the back means the wave power can ‘see’ more board to push forward. But I’m only talking so far about the time from when you paddle till you stop paddling and start to jump up As soon as you’re getting up now you’re in the dropping down the face part and now it becomes a different ballgame. I believe njsurfer is right that less tail with will help with this stage but only to a point. Less surface area= less resistance, but once you start to get too narrow, you displace too much water and the resistance starts to go back up. Then there is water release off the tail. Semi guns with 3" squashtails drop down the face faster than round pins because they release water more efficiently. For paddling out my 7’1" semigun out paddles my 6’5" thruster, but in a steep 6’ wave my 6’5’ catches the wave better and drops in faster. On a 10’ wave my semi catches the wave better as i can get in earlier with more paddling power, my 6’5" could only get that same wave on a real late take-off and if I could pull that off would actually be faster down the face. (I am absolutely not ever going to try that ever again!) In a previous post I wrote about comparisons I did between boards with narrower and wider noses and v bottoms compared to concave bottoms. The best paddlers and wave catchers were the narrow nosed concave bottoms beating out the others, some of which were 4" longer and 1/8" thicker. All I can say is this is my experience comparing boards in the water.