Or if your board is too big, you don't penetrate the wave at all and you just float up to the top and get launched over the falls.
I agree with that ( and can relate ). But with a bit of practice, it can be overcome.
The problem I have with the spring analogy is that the surfboard is not pushed down into the water to create the spring effect (unless you’re shoving your board down instead of paddling). Both a large board and a small board paddling for a wave will be mostly sitting on top of the water. As the steep wave catches you the force is bringing you up the wave face lifting the back of the board, not necessarily penetrating it to produce the spring effect.
We have been using the spring effect to catch waves with small boards for decades. You just shove the board down into the water as hard as you can and then let the rebounding force help launch you forward. You do this just as the wave reaches you so that you get a little extra push.
With practice you can get into a wave without more than one or two strokes.
Yes I agree and alluded to that technique in my post. But if you are just paddling I don’t see how the spring effect comes into play. The way i see it is on a fairly steep wave the lip about to pitch is the final pushing force for getting in. Look at pics of guys making the wave at Mavericks. I don’t see any spring effect, it’s the lip pushing them into the wave. I don’t see any rebound spring effect. The push the board down to load it is mostly used in small to medium sized surf. There’s plenty of video on youtube showing takeoffs on larger steep waves. I don’t recall seeing this type of takeoff used.
The described technique, using the floatation of the board ''rebounding'' to aid takeoff, was common in the mid to late 50's balsa era. With skill ''no stroke takeoffs'' were easily done in big California waves, as well as on the North Shore up to 10'/12' Sunset, on 10' plus Guns. It was a common practice at Windansea in the 50's through the 60's.
ok everybody, I’m beginning to see the light regarding catching waves on smaller boards.
I’ve been arguing on Alains excellent 55 and over thread about paddle only catching being of value (ie no tail pop, just paddle and let the wave catch you up) and I still believe it has its place. However I can relate to Benjamins experiment when I’m on my longboard. I do find that very hard to pop the tail in pitching waves.
However what has made me see the light is kicking my feet when catching waves on a shortboard, I’ve just started doing that this weekend and it works!
Check out Coco Ho’s perfect paddle only catch 40 seconds into this vid. Also note both competitors kick their feet. I have even seen longboarders kick their feet in the air.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZKzrS52HPA
I still think extra length helps when the waves start to get large though.
Another weekend of this technique and I’m now thinking why didn’t I do that before?! oh well better late than never.
Kicking my feet has now brought my Pancho Sullivan chip into the same realm of wavecatching as my bigger Flyer 2 - at least in small to medium waves. Maybe my Flyer2 was too long for that technique and would be even better? on the other hand I don’t think I was trying either. Whatever I think its appropriate for me to relinquish all claims of ownership of the truth about buoancy and wavecatching. I suppose I could find out if it is possible to recruit my feet on the Flyer by trying it, but the problem is I just don’t want to any more. I am rather shocked out how quickly my love affair with the Flyer2 which spanned years could be over so suddenly. It was a wonderful one board quiver though, could handle everything from mush to conditions which justified a step-up. Maybe a smaller Flyer would be the answer, however I feel its time to move on…
One of the frustrating things about surfing vids is that they don’t show the catching of the wave. However the editor who did the Rip Curl Pro Portugal video above has included the takeoff in some of the other heats. Here is Taj Burrows and Michael Picon
off topic, but such a nice backside air by Taj.
and some more displays of takeoffs by Bede Durbidge and Joel Parkinson
is it my imagination or do they kick their feet slightly less than the women?
it is excellent that some people can do the no paddle or one paddle catch easily, I can’t, never been able to. However I’m not seeing it on these vids from the elite surfers and they do have perfect lined up waves with minimal hassling due to the priority system.
MrJ, I don’t think those are the type of waves that people were talking about in this thread. They are not pitching. The kind of waves in your videos are easier to catch by paddling/planing, but because the pros ride small boards it is hard to plane (get the board near parallel to the water). So they kick the water. The impact of the foot/water lifts the tail up, making the board more angled downward with the plane of the wave and then they start planing…i think
I think there’s a point when the waves start to go from rolling to pitching faster and you’ll stop seeing the pros kicking.
I think so too, because I have taken on a new technique I have been aware of whats going on and its my feeling that the flutter kick works differently from swimming. While swimming the feet are submerged but on the board they are lifting out of the water. I feel like I am pressing down on the surface with the effect you mentioned. I’ve also felt my feet push against the lip to propel me forward.
I think we all have our ideas of what is pitching. There is rolling, there is pitching and there are slabs which I don’t do. So far my impression is that the kick is nearly almost always helpful, but I have on occassions kicked for too long and propelled myself down the wave so fast I made a complete mess of getting to my feet. I do feel that I am well on the way to getting this technique down to a reflex action now though.
After surfing 3 days of overhead surf, two of which were 2x overhead I made these simple observations. Given a fairly long board (7’+) with a lot of buoyancy, the ability to paddle in much earlier certainly helps. A lot of buoyancy in a 6+ doesn’t seem to matter much as you still have the same takeoff spot. I’ll go as far as to say the extra float in a short board may be a hindrance in the critical peak takeoff spot. I noticed the really good surfers (some pros) had a lot of time popping up. their boards were not projected down the face as quickly. Seemed as if they were stuck on the lip long enough to set up. I on the other hand surfing my 6’4" 20 1/2 x 3" MR singlefin either stuck in the lip and missed it or was flung down the face way too fast. Granted my reflexes are not what they were but I was very conscious of what was going on around me and I think the observation is valid. In a very fast wave buoyancy is not your friend.
I’d argue most of the recent stuff here, the “pop out” take off, etc. have alot to do with placement and much less to do with the rest. I’ve seen people pitched on little boards on head high suck off reef action, and I’ve seen guys (far fewer) take off with one stroke, on old school long boards, in the same waves, get barreled and make it…
My story from last easter is a case in point. Head and a half sucking double up reef peak - me, older guy on an 8’er. some younger guys on 6’ers. Me, few set waves from deep/behind early, get in, get down, set up, go for the hole. Them, not able to paddle around fast enough/against the current, to get in the spot… ridding inbetweeners… Goody for me…
i was avoiding this thread because the title kinda put me off. i thought it would be all theoretical and abstract but, i'm really enjoying all your dialogue.
my experience regarding paddle in takeoffs vs. corking takeoffs (or the spring effect or the scissor kick or ...) is that i tend to use the cork takeoff
when i'm surfing a shifty beachbreak. doesn't matter if it's mushy or hollow. the same technique works... on the other hand, if the waves and takeoff
spot is fairly defined and/or i'm able to line a wave up from further away, i will paddle into the wave... seems to me that i usually get into the wave earlier
when i am able to paddle in. the cork takeoff takes far less effort and can be done really quickly but, whether good or bad, it is far more critical of a
drop to bottom turn and my succes ratio inevitably drops.
What a good old thread!
Sorry I sort of derailed it by bringing up ''no-paddles'', I was trying to isolate variables. Wasn't intending to start a discussion on ''corking'' takeoffs and the like. But now I'm thinking about the effects on pitch induced by corking and/or kicking. More headaches...
Very interesting…
As a late starter (at age 42, 4 yrs ago) who can only get out about once per week, I try to learn as much as I can from videos so I’ll be prepared when I’m in the water. Sadly, most of them skip the positioning/paddle in … and there is so much to learn here!
Fortnuately … Dane Reynolds’ blog (marinelayerproductions) has a ton of video showing him getting into all sorts of waves, many times with the bare minimum of strokes, and on tiny boards. Either he has superhuman strength … or he is in exactly the right place at the right time. I think it’s the latter. Very impressive to see him do one stroke with one arm then pop up into a tube. Sure as heck looks easy! :)
My impression is that a floaty board may help you scoot around in the lineup easier & get to the right place at the right time … but once you are in the sweet spot, the type of board makes much less of a difference.
That said, my two boards are a small-wave shortboard & a fat biscuit; the takeoff styles are very different for the two & I find the fat board much more forgiving.
Michael
Had a good day here on Sunday… solid overhead swell, thick and barreling… 8’ @ 13 sec… hitting the sandbar and jacking, throwing out, and spitting…
Most of the guys getting the best rides were highly skilled surfers on performance shortboards, taking off however they could, and air dropping or near air dropping in. But the guy taking off the deepest was on a higher volume, old school single fin, paddling in early and setting his line.
I was on a recently acquired Sunova - 6’6 Nitro. Second session on the board, first time in real waves. The rails on this board are thin, and the end of the tail, at the edge of the pod, the thing is about 1/4" thick. The first two waves I paddled for as I normally do on a higher volume shortboard - cork up, take a stroke or two, and in - and I got pitched, punded and pummled. Switched to paddling HARD and started making waves… late drops like everyone else, but getting in.
My point is that the corking takoff technique is easier with more tail volume. That would be what I would consider the critical factor. The thin tail of the Sunova did not have enough volume to create a bouyant force significant enough to “cork” the board up and out. Instead, it penetrated the water more deeply on takeoff, tapping into that deeper energy of the wave. But if you didn’t have the momentum, the speed of the wave overcame the the board/paddler, and you’d get caught int the lip and go over the falls. You needed to get the board up to speed, not necessarily up and planing, but get some forward momentum.
I guess that if you kick on a short enough board...your feet and lower legs effectivley add to the buoyancy of the board- almost like "dynamic volume".
Nice story NJ - Glad you scored. Makes some good points too.
tom351 - I’ve often questioned the “kicking,” but was set straight by “my test rider,” a former pro who said his first coach, Ian Cairns (sp?) said, what ever helps you get into the wave.
I’ve found lifting my legs up at the knees can help by moving my center of gravity forward, but mostly I don’t want to try catching critical waves in the position. That, along with my latest boards flatter rocker in the front third, which allowed me to paddle further forward, and seemed to enable me to catch waves that much easier - center of gravity being further forward (my theory anyway), has caused me to think about trying a similar rocker on my next board.
I suppose I could say I’m talking about moving the buoyancy forward as role in paddle-in take offs.
Hi NJ
With a thin-tailed board don’t you just arch your back and lift your feet to get the tail to sink so it gets sucked less backwards as the wave passes by.
Then chin down (my boards have chin dents in front) and a few strong strokes as the wave steepens?
Uses the mid volume as a fulcrum
So would the added buoyancy of a tail traction pad make a difference for this purpose?
Watch video of Kelly Slater riding his rediculously small board at Pipeline. Pay very close attention or even slow-mo his take-off technique. You will see that he burries the tail, does a powerful frog kick and keeps kicking until the last second before popping to his feet. Its an amazingly powerful technique.
You can see it in a couple of spots in this video.