Thick fins vs. Thin fins

“Answer this question: Is bottled up knowledge in your head similar to white papers and the like (mass)? AND why does this traditional process slow the transfer of knowledge? (ripples and waves, separate entities or blood brothers?)”

The reason scientists and the law use Latin to define their terms is because it is a dead language, and so the definitions of the words never change. Like carving in stone. But, surfing is alive, and the definitions change, to the point they have little or no relevant meaning. So, by creating a glossary of terms, that nails these terms down specific, right now, we will have something to refer back to, when there is trouble. Familiarizing ourselves will hopefully make the Swayocks experience better for all. Mirriam Websters, American Heritage, Oxford Engish all do this. But for surfers to lobby them would be much too time consuming, though “ollie” recently made it into the Oxford English. Congrats to Alan Gelfand!

What slows progress is ill defined terms. When our military decides how to best take over someone elses country, they do it with accurate terminology and enough acronyms to give anyone a headache. This, however, has improved their effectiveness over the years. And if they mess up they are usually blamed for not developing a vocabulary and terminology for how to deal with the outcome. It’s all about communication. The entire world would be a better and safer place if we took the time to understand each other better. Same is true here at Sways. Most of the times I stop contributing to a thread because of a difference of opinion over terms. That is something we can fix, but no one is going to fix it for us.

I need to really think before I post some serious suggestions. But something to consider is some kind of process of peer review. Basically your suggestions get critiqued by the other people involved, before being posted for more general comment. A bit like certain threads being promoted to the resource section here.

I’ll be back soon…

It sounds like it’s time to start a new thread. How about Swaylockian Terms and Definitions for the Glossary?

“Hmmm, I hadn’t heard this one, and quite frankly with all due respect to Greg Loehr I don’t believe it. As for Nick Carrol being credible, give me a break ( and didn’t Greg Webber start shaping decades after the term was first used…)”

This is a perfect example if the need for information at our fingertips. Mark

That’s good. Carry it to the next thread and if you can remember your cavitation def bring that too okay?

MY last post on the subject is going to follow Tom’s.

I have to get some more work done. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was working today?

Excellent and timely suggestion, Tom. Who wants to to start? Because how ever does that will probably end up as moderator.

This thick thin thread as fun and informative as it has been, it has been equally extremely time consuming. So who ever starts be forwarned. And be even more stoked. Any more nominations? Mark

Hey Sways,

I struggle with threads like this one that wander in many directions.

IMHO if we’re going to get anywhere want we have to formalize our business well enough to stay on topic. I’ve been the president of a board of directors at an amature level and without Robert’s Rules of Order nothing gets done. I’m not suggesting that we use them at all only that if a topic is begun that we try and stay with it and that if we want to discuss something else that we begin a new.

Personal references and common experiences that relate to a topic can be very informative so I’m not suggest the completely cool scientific approach either.

Certainly where the thickness is in a surfboard a fin or one’s head has a lot to do with how well it performs.

Good Waves, Rich

Quote:
"Hmmm, I hadn't heard this one, and quite frankly with all due respect to Greg Loehr I don't believe it. As for Nick Carrol being credible, give me a break ( and didn't Greg Webber start shaping decades after the term was first used.........)"

This is a perfect example if the need for information at our fingertips. Mark

Shaper Bill Hickey claims he made two single to double concave single fin boards in 1970.

But he says the idea was brought to him by a surfer - the surfer asked for the first triplane, and then a friend of his had Bill make another. About 5 years later the Bonzers with concaves started showing up in San Francisco, where Bill was shaping at the time.

However, AFAICT, there was no groundswell of concave shaping stemming from Bill’s efforts, just two boards.

Dunno when the other sources were from, the bonzer info is on their website, claiming 1972 as the year they started using the triplane hull, from brainstorming between the brothers and their father.

My memory is starting to get fuzzy, but if I recall the concave first arrived circa '61. I think it made it’s appearance on boards before the V. Back then we used a concave on longboards for noseriding, and I think Tom Morey made a concave ‘noserider’ around this time. By the early '70s guys like Glen Ritchie and Mitchell Rae in Australia (Outer Island) used concave a lot on sharp railed boards…

I like Robert’s Rules too. Good suggestion. Keeps things organized. m

Woah, Mark, I am with you, earlier posters like Danb just need to learn the proper protocol of the forum and I am in total agreement of how you dealt with his post. BUT the hardest thing to do, and the reason why RS was banned is because this is a hard format to not get personally involved with, ie: you (we) are inclined to answer EVERY post and take EACH answer personally. A physical model would be the phone, but this, and especially as used for communicating ideas and theories, is a new mode - more like screaming into a hurricane :wink: You just have to post then let it sit (like retroman) and let it swirl around or let the flying fish hit you in the head. (as Wildy does, bless his intuitive soul)

This is thanks to Ambrose…

Right and left (hemispheres of the brain)

wrong and right(?)…

Can you save the body by chopping off the hand?

Yes you can, but what the hell were you doing in the first place to get to the point requiring such drastic measures?

Sometimes folding your hands and bowing your head to seek an answer is a better solution than sticking your hand out of Einstein’s moving train…

I’ve cut up enough tuna, after giving thanks to the creator, to know that their hind fin is more like a membrane thing-a-ma-jiggie and not (quite) the same as a dolphin flipper or hand for that matter.

Here’s another question… because my wifes diamond ring can cut glass is that it’s function?

Mating is a strong natural drive that allows animals to invent exotic (and artful) means that relate to survival only and make little or no sense to the laws of nature. Can you hear the frogs croacking? Ribet, ribet…

Thanks to Chip… Speak your mind, it’s great fun…

Keep up the good work, YOU are EL Supremo Moderator, or not. Greg needs that job like an extra hole in the head. I nominate Greg to crack the Fortune 500 before you or I. That’s as far as I’ll go, though… Hey Rich, I nominate Pecos Bill to lasso this forum and moderate it, and Paul Bunyan to manage the mega-bull. LOL

Quote:

earlier posters like Danb just need to learn the proper protocol of the forum and I am in total agreement of how you dealt with his post

I was considering just letting this post go, but since I value the information people here provide I’m curious what I said or did that was wrong? As far as I can tell I only responded in two areas: what was the definition of cord (and I cannot see how this would require me to be put in my place) and to Mark’s comment that nothing is being taught in school these days (it was mentioned several times). You can say just about anything about my knowledge about surfboard construction and I won’t take it personally because its very limited, but I take attacks on eduction more personally. Most of my 7th grade science curriculum was taught in 12th grade twenty years ago. What was mentioned about the universal effect of gravity is basic eight grade material. In my son’s 1st grade class he has over 40 minutes a night of homework while in my day their was none. My point is that many kids today are working at higher levels than kids ever had to and it bugs me to hear people sell them short. It this wasn’t his intent then I apologize for being overly sensitive.

If it was something else that I did please let me know because I wouldn’t want to repeat my mistake.

Quote:

My memory is starting to get fuzzy, but if I recall the concave first arrived circa '61. I think it made it’s appearance on boards before the V. Back then we used a concave on longboards for noseriding, and I think Tom Morey made a concave ‘noserider’ around this time. By the early '70s guys like Glen Ritchie and Mitchell Rae in Australia (Outer Island) used concave a lot on sharp railed boards…

A guy in Santa Cruz has a twin fin concave tail Simmons Balsa sq tail. I’m not real sure how old it is but I know its older then '61.

Mark asked you to write what you had on your mind with some concrete examples and references. I was only eluding to the fact that you didn’t reply, or tell us that you were busy, when you had been asked to (for the sake of the thread) make sense of your post. It appeared to be an incomplete thought that needed to be amplified. When you gave up, and never answered until now we thought that your wife found you and pulled the plug. Or you had gone surfing and had been eaten by a 400 million year old denizen of the deep. How could we know that you were merely holding your virtual breath? Nice board by the way… no joke.

How do you know me? Or I you? (You don’t need to answer this in writing)

Maybe your hanging post will allow the thick and thin debate to fester in everyone’s brain and fin terms will branch off and be decided upon which is what Mark intended in the first place(?) and I will take the “blame” for that, because Mark is 100% right, no one escapes the effects of gravity, be they words typed on a computer or in a white paper or even unsaid.

Bagman,

The twin fin concave balsa boards by Bob Simmons, date from the late 40’s to very early 50’s.

Hi Tom. You raise a good point, I didn’t say the glossary was perfect, far from it, it is merely a start. It’s supposed to be a community resource. I added your comment (which was a valid one and very relevant) to the “cant” entry.

The point being that it’s very easy to do this, and any one can edit the entries to make them more informative.

Keith,

I was in no way trying to belittle the huge effort you put out starting a glossary. I just saw validity in some of the points being made and thought that a new thread would be a better venue to debate definitions. If each of us went into the glossary and picked a term or two to add input to, we very well may never run into each other. Which doesn’t lend to much interaction or critique. Also with an appropriately titled seperate thread we can stop hijacking Mark’s thread and possibly draw in some of those not keeping current on this 150+ entry monster.

For the record, the first concaves I rode in high performance boards were shaped by Brewer in the early 70’s. Brewer also shaped concave and double concave guns in the 60’s. With all due respect to Bob Simmons, in my estimation Brewer’s was the first use of concaves on high performance boards. I continued to ride concave boards from that point on, with the exception of twins, all the way until today.

The article Mark is refering to was one printed in Surfing Mag this past year which stated that Bill Hartley and I first used concave on a modern three fin. Now I don’t know if this is true, and who cares anyway, but the original concept came from Mr. Richard Brewer. Bill and I made some modifications and that was picked up by Greg Webber who really ran with it and pretty much introduced it to the world.

There is probably no aspect of shape that hasn’t been tried by someone somewhere. But when a particular combination comes through as it did with Simon’s three, as it did with MR’s twin, as it did with the Greenough/McTavish shortboard, as it did with the Webber concave, certain people are going to get credit even though they were inspired by someone else.

In reality all these things are just passing through each of us and then on to someone else to the destination that is the future. In my best estimation debating who did what first doesn’t prove a thing. The person who popularizes a given idea or combination is usually the one who deserves the credit.

As for Greg Webber himself, he has always freely admitted where his inspiration came from, a really credible thing in this biz. I have the utmost respect for him.

I’m sorry that I didn’t reply sooner. I didn’t reply because it was starting to feel like I was making it a political/social discussion. Nothing destroys a great thread like this quicker than bringing up personal …isms.

Will these fin rules, regulations, terms and conditions be easy to understand for 14 year olds and artists? Or do we have to presume to conclusion for a happy face stamped at top of dissertation?

To the burning question, yes, I was hit by a mackeral, though not in the head. I took a body blow when my son jerked the pole to land that first catch at the end of the pier. He had to be taught to take the mechanical advantage and reel 'em in - not a force of will situation, no matter how fancy you tie your knots.

Get that measuring tape around Flipper, he’s put on some weight. Didn’t the lessons learned from Lilly and dolphins or, more recently, the movie - Whale Rider take? Extreme amounts of the quality - release?

Catch as catch can. Ollie-ollie oxen free. Earth Day is coming, better pack your bags. Fill the dumpster, give those universes in a grain of sand some aid and relief. (The Tao of Physics - Fitjof Capra)

Without man-made failures like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, we wouldn’t have questioned the chaos and no patterns of meaning would have seen the light of computer screen. Can you imagine the resonance of understanding set off in the brain of Lorenz when the butterfly pattern first traced it’s existence, point by point, and was fully groked? Child on the swing self oscillating and flying to heaven, it’s just a short flight when your imagination is fueled by the exuberance of youth. Fractions then - now fractals are the third period subject right before lunch. (Chaos: Making a New Science - James Gleick)

Dinosaurs gotta fly. Big bones with a hollow internal space, when launched off a cliff, can gain forward momentum. A skin membrane stretched taut over a finger or three and feel the glide, feel the ride. What’s it like with two surfaces filled with little or no meat? Like Duck Feet flippers strapped to my feet? Did that Pelican just wink at me? And why does Greenough get honorary membership to that coastal pod? Maybe cause he doesn’t announce his arrival with deadly sonar sweeps? Stiff flat surface to handle the horsepower if multiplied by four take away a factor for age, becomes - boy ON the bubble.

I humbly withdraw from further discussion, and join my wife in our native garden to watch the birds and the bees.