At first I thought that a low entry rocker was the magic ingredient, then a rolled vee through the entry, now I think that a key ingredient in every good shortboard (up to 6’8" anyway) is a relatively thin (5/8 inch) rail a foot back from the nose. Obviously, rail foil is only one component in a good board; rocker, volume, bottom contours, etc. are huge but, rarely if ever have I heard someone attribute the “magic” to a thin forward rail. What do you guys think?
There are so many variables in a surfboard, its every man for himself as far as something like thin rails are concerned. If you go to thin your not going to be able to paddle as well and the nose is pretty much out of the water alot of the time if your doing modern shortboarding anyway.
Hey For good duckdiving, for sure. For good rebounds off the lip…maybe not. For good float and paddling speed…forget it. For looking cool with the thinnest nose…for sure For keeping the swing weight of the board as low as possible…doesn’t matter.
1968 hanapepe surf shop…they called em infinity rails…brewer lopez reno were the guys If I remember correctly? The front third were thin rails … ambrose …there was an ambient haze that fall
ambrose i think those boards may have had a fair bit of center thickness in them at that time, and rolled off to the thin rail.
yea numbnuts i will go with your plan …all my best shorties have got real thin rails gives better sensitivity,im no lightweight either …to thick up front and when you hook real tight sometimes you bury your whole front rail my thicker ones would cork out …a little out of time with my turn …as far as less paddle power is concerned …na your not taking away area just a little volume it may slightly hurt float but not paddle power …a lot of crew have this major misconception that thickness adds paddle power…it just turns your board into a boat and floats you better when your bobbing up and down …as soon as your moving surface area plays a way bigger role… reagrds BERT
I’m with Bert’s rationale on this one. He described my philosophy regarding float vs. surface planing area to a T. http://www.eastcoastsurfer.com/sak/recentphoto/GregSakowicz-for-web.jpg
that pic matched this discussion quite well …hi 5 bro…glad to see a little agreement as well …thanks… regards BERT
Don’t you think that the rocker through the front half of the board affects paddling the most? I’ve had plenty of thickness forward boards (6’6"-7’0"'s) that paddled worse than they would have if I would have “ironed-out” the entry rocker especially 12 to 18 inches back from the tip of the nose. Isn’t the slight loss of foam and float more than made up for by the paddling power gained and a little swing weight lost?
…everything “GOOD” is “BAD”…everything “BAD” is “GOOD”…Herb
I once shaped a stepdeck with a dished out concave on the deck.The rails were down like the Peck Model(on the nose). The bottom was flat in the nose going to a bit of roll throughout the rest.It seemed as if it wanted to ride lower on the wave when you were trimmed forward.Maybe a good thing for point surf but a little tricky in Beach Breaks.I just built the thing…not claiming to be an expert.Do you guys think that low rails seem to track lower on a wave??It always seemed that way to me.
Numbnuts (yer screename cracks me up bro), I recently had my shaper “relax” the entry rocker on one of my chippier shapes and was shocked at how much better it paddled- felt like he had somehow added float, but he swears that all he did was bring the forward curve down a little bit, and not much at that. Herb- I appreciate your comment and it reminds me of one of my favorite convos with a local shaper who I know and respect for his work and willingless to converse with anyone, whether they are buying a board from him or not. Over beers one night at a local bar, I asked him about an interesting shape of his that I had seen in the water (but it was a bad day, so I did not see the surfer ride anything), we started to discuss some nuance of the design, and I asked something to the effect of “do you think it will work”? He assumed a wry grin on his face, leaned forward, and said in a devilish tone, “Man, it all works… It all works.” I think his point was, any board, even the most odd design, can light up given the correct conditions, the correct rider, or the correct mindset." Those words have stuck with me and led me to do some fun experiments with the fellow who shapes my boards. http://www.eastcoastsurfer.com/sak/recentphoto/GregSakowicz-for-web.jpg
thin accesses the big fin…the rail… thick rails cannot set …the rail can be an adjustable fin the length of the board accessable only with the glide follow through… of the dominant flex fin…ambrose… full flex bert I think youve got it… board ,rail, fin and rider.truely revolutionary…suns coming up at Greenwich
Funny you brought this up Numbnuts… About a month ago I shaped a 6’3 rounded pin for a friend, and the only thing I didn’t like about it was that the nose foil thickened up too fast… being the first board I’ve made for someone else I wanted to go by the book, and my nose thickness measurements were ducking under 1.25". I decided to make myself the identical board this weekend, but with more foil. I take a fair amount of measurements when I shape, but also try to rely on what looks right… I think it looks good, and will try to get both boards out on the same day for the test… but my nose thickness was measuring in at about 1" so I started backing off… is this about where you guys come in on your shorties?
Bert is right, right, right. Without going to extremes, thickness is less important than rocker lines pushing and dragging. Thin noses feel really good. Future surfboards will have flatter rocker for paddling and down-the- line speed, and flex into deeper rocker for sharper turns and energy return out of the turn. Coming soon!
but that flex must be alive and sesitive and be able to spring back with as much force as you put in …coz some types of materials absorb energy in the flex and respond slowly when springing back…for example bend a wooden ruler over a table ,then a plastic one ,then a metal one ,see how they all respond differently ,thats why the wooden stringer has stood the test of time…transfers energy, has memory ,doesnt fatigue like a lot of other composites… but back to your rocker thickness thing numbnuts…in my own surfing likes …i found that the boards that paddled ok ,were a little sticky and rail graby when i hooked hard under the lip and on the way down you felt like your board wasnt directly underneath you enough so youd catch a rail if it was to critical …so when my nose entries were lifted and came further back the whole front end was free, every time you went vert without busting the tail your board would be right underneath you on the way back down so you had so much more control into your next bottom turn … but it didnt paddle as well ,and as a general rule i often use the saying when dealing with older customers especially ,that they have a performance versus paddle power issue…coz everone wants both, but one of them has to suffer a little if you want more of the other…for young crew who can surf well, its not an issue…hope that helps regards BERT
One master board builder friend of mine (name withheld out of respect) who rides and makes a lot of boards for older guys (50 and over crew) likes to say that a board that paddles good surfs good, while another equally insane master craftsman/surfer (don’t want to out him by name either) who makes a lot of high performance boards for himself (and he’s nearing sixty) and a lot of younger guys and gals just says that they paddle better than bodysurfing; “Do you want to surf or paddle?” As always its all personal taste and preference. Despite this, I keep thinking there’s gonna be one right answer. Thanks for the feedback.
numbnuts… Thats also been George Greenoughs line: “Do you want to surf or paddle?” And youre right, part of this issue is governed by personal taste and preference. But this equation is also contingient upon rider height, weight, physical ability, overall experience, as well as the influence of equipment construction, the presence of (or lack of) other surfers, waves and surface conditions. Then add to all those factors a common self-imposed limitation such as standing only... and its not difficult to see that on a personal level, surfcraft design is a closed system. No wonder thoughtful surfers ask themselves if there could ever be a single solution to this issue. Taking the prescribed scope of these variables into consideration, much time, frustration and expense can be avoided by simply recognizing what can, and cannot, be realistically changed to a rider`s advantage. One case in point is George Greenough… having made a number of decisions designed to broaden the limits of his personal surfing. First, it was to end conventional surfing to better explore kneeboarding, and then years later stopping that in favor of full-time mat surfing. This last change of surfcraft continues to perplex many of his kneelo admirers… George finds it amusing to note the inconsistent thought processes of those who have openly applauded his move from standing surfer to kneelo, yet fail to appreciate his pragmatic choice to go from kneeboarding to mat surfing. When all is said and done, our greatest limitations reside between our own ears.
Many original kneeriders ; greenough ,Lis,Rich Pavel,John Brockway,to name a few really got into sailboarding in the eighties for many reasons , speed, crowds etc. Most have really gotten into surfing many different forms now. Paddling a kneeboard in a big crowd these days can be a drag with little mercy! Most kneeboarders including myself have never looked down at any other choice of surf vehicle–It all can be a blast. kiteboarding really looks like a ton of fun!After I “master” mat riding , I may try kitesurfing.Like I said, anyway of " riding waves", is what iam after.Like greenough always said,“The surf is too good now I can’t wait until the wind comes up and puts some gnarl to it,and everyone will go home”.Sometimes when everyone goes one way the best thing to do is CHANGE direction.
today the wind came up and chased eevryone away-best session of the season bar none…