understand weight.

General Discussion
1

Maybe the morning expresso hasn’t sunk in, but… other than wiggle-butt surfing or the need to hand carry a board on a bike for a 1-2 mile trek down to the beach…

Can someone explain to me the real need to go ultra light?

I really hate my Surftech’s for that exact same reason.

Maybe it’s the combination of light and stiff but every “plastic board” (as my surf buddy calls them) I ever owned or tried with maybe the exception of my Pointblanks Mako, had zero follow through after the bottom turn unless you actually forced it back down by jamming it back down again with another carve…

If you don’t time the next turn just right then you actually lose speed… So its the jam edge/fins-jam edge/fins-jam edge/fins-twist your torsal wiggle your butt-twist your torsal wiggle your butt kind of surfing versus the bigcarve-glide-setup-bigcarve kind of surfing I grew up on… Maybe I’m just too old school. But I’m really trying to understand the need to go superlight and how it’s going to improve performance unless you just want to hop around like a skateboarder.

Wiggle butt surfing is like old school tacking a skateboard down the side walk very much a distraction to the eye unless I guess if your hiding behind all that spray you’re throwing…

In my old “clouded days” of the early 70’s we experimented with swing weight… You know how a batter warming up in the box puts a weight ring around the bat’s tip… Well we used to tape down flattened lead fishing weights on the noses of our boards to try and get the same pendulum effect. But again we were all kind of out of it then with all the mind enhancing medications so I don’t exactly remember if it worked or not… I guess we were tow-boarders ahead of our time kind of guys… I kind of remember BK riding 16-17 inch wide missles at sunset then too…

This all came about with the EPS sandwich stuff experiments and me trying to build nose and tailblocksfor my experiment out of solid zebrawood…

CMP said it to us last weekend… Isn’t strong and maybe just a little lighter better than spending all this effort trying to go ultra light and maybe not so strong? I’m sure Bert’s gonna scold me for that one…

Anyway after cutting the blocks I’m having second thoughts about putting something so heavy on the nose and tail of a 7"3". Maybe having the tail heavy would be a plus, I know having the tail protection of heavy solid wood would definitely be a plus…

There’s gotta be a compromise solution out there somewhere or a formula you can use…

Sorry if I’m stirring up the pot just been seeing some of the new posts got me re-thinking it all.

2

this is one of my most passionate topics…not a no brainer topic

in a nutshell…better response, sensitivity and swingweight benefits progressive surfing in average conditions…here on the right (wrong) coast lighter boards for a 41y/o progressive surfer is a godsend…for me its not even debatable.

frankly, if i lived in HI the std pu/pe weight would suit me very well…in good surf it proly doesnt make much difference…you are a very lucky surfer!!!

Different surfers, particularly traditional vs progressive, will respond differently to weight changes…for me it was an epiphany! Smooth Tom C style shortboarding is my basic reference…

…better float

better sensitivity (thinner board with equal float)

better response (faster acceleration…ability to place the board where I want to when I want to)

lower swingweight

In tradewind sideshore chop’d island surf, the last thing I’d ride is a corky surftech…but in glassy lesser powered surf…sweeeeeeeet…

If I were old-school surfing good powerful periodically heavy textured surf on a consistent basis I wouldn’t go ultralight…I’d look at optimal flex characteristics, that lasts, instead…im headed in that direction…so much fun!

3

oneula,

I’m with you on this one. I have a 6’10" Boardworks Yancy Spencer fish and have experienced EXACTLY the same thing.

Quote:

If you don’t time the next turn just right then you actually lose speed… So its the jam edge/fins-jam edge/fins-jam edge/fins-twist your torsal wiggle your butt-twist your torsal wiggle your butt kind of surfing versus the bigcarve-glide-setup-bigcarve kind of surfing I grew up on…

The board works great in fast steep waves and I believe the lightweight allows me to pump the heck out of it in order to beat sections. However, on long smooth point style waves I really have to “jam edge/fins” initiating the turn in order keep the speed coming out of the carve. Unfortunately, I think it’s the nature of the beast. If we want an extremely lightweight board, we have to learn to use a different technique when riding it.

Sr Pato

4

Yeah

Different styles for different boards for different breaks…

I probably could go schizo with 20 different boards clogging up my garage and backyard…

Front footers, backfooters, wiggle butters, stand up posing gliders, and the I don’t work at all ones…

I guess I need to be a little more open minded and a ton more flexible in the joints some times…

But I hear what you all are saying…

Maybe here in O’waihee stronger is better then you only need just one to last for a lifetime (non-yellowing that is)…

5

One aspect that doesn’t have to do with riding - as I’ve appreciated the momentum effects of my heavier boards, and the chop cutting (some what) - but one big thing I noticed this past summer after my heavier board broke, and I bought a much lighter one - not eps-epoxy light, but light clark, thin, with light glass job - was… When caught inside and trying to pull the board around, hold on to it, etc., when trying to “whip” it around after paddling like mad to make it out of the impact zone when a bigger set came, etc. It was so much easier to handle the board, and the time saved, as small as it may be, made a world of difference. To me, that was a revelation as to my overall surf experience. Taylor.

6

Hmmm, here we go again. The standard old man grumping about what the kids are riding conversation. How about you just ride what you like to ride and keep it to yourself? The most progressive surfing to this day is being done on the tools of today: the modern shortboard. The lighter a board is, the faster it will accelerate. The less swing weight you have, the more quickly you can change direction. In the eyes of modern high performance surfing, lighter is better, theres no question about it. But this topic has been debated over and over- go read the archives… it has been worn into the ground. -Carl

7

I had one of those Bushman 6’6" epoxys that i got off a friend of mine who distributes them and it was one of the hardest love hate relationships ever. Perfect for clean barreling waves just overhead, but then i went to SF to visit my family for Christmas paddled the thing out in some of the Best OB i think i can remember and the thing just did not want to hold in the face.

Epoxys are great for fast racing waves that arn’t too big but any chop strong off shores or anything like that leaves you hating the plastic piece of CRAP.

By the way I pressure dinged the crap out of the board and double buckled the board in shoulder high surf on the first day i rode it. When it finally snapped (only after three monthes of owning it) I looked inside and found an enormous air bubble in the middle of the EPS. If you are going to buy a mass produced board made in taiwan be prepared for equipment made of material which has not been properly inspected

8

Sorry for the post, I’m not trying to cause trouble here…

But as a side note and a background motive for the weight question post is my recent talling up of the material costs for me to get setup to duplicate a Bert Burger shop and make some of these kinds of ultra light boards in a semi-professionally reproduceable manner. Funny in that none of us really have an idea of how Bert really does it anyway… And while everyone has been talking I’ve been buying things to get setup…

I know its been said over and over again that you can never recoup the cost and effort a board maker puts into their craft which is all so true, but just the startup costs to make your dream machine with the correct and professional tools and facilities is staggering. I crunched some numbers and to do this board building operation like a professional and not a half-a*sed hacker and the one illuminating thing for me has been the sticker shock of realizing the total setup cost of reproducing a true Bert Burger extra light hybrid gem using all the correct tools most of the proboard builders here have accumulated over time…

Let’s say I want to do this thing professionally and setup a shaping/glassing/vacuum operation with all the correct tools/facilities to get the job done not a backyaard hackshop thing… Here’s a rough cost breakdown for a 12’ bag Vacuum setup to build my own 9’0" Bert Burger all around keeper of a board that I’ve calculated after checking a bunch of suppliers.

This of course doesn’t include the cost of building a separate standalone shaping/glassing room in your backyard so you don’t pollute your neighborhood with fumes, dust or noise or renting a place in an industrial zone.

Basic Vacuuming/Glassing Materials - ACP Composites/Fiberglass Supply:

$335.00 ACP Autovac Bagging System 220 volts

$008.00 (4) 36" wide bag tube @ $2/yd

$014.00 (2) 40" quicklock seals @ $7 each

$021.00 (4) 0.14x24" Dupont Mylar @ $1.75/ft

$024.00 (4) 60" Peelply @ $6.00/yd

$012.00 (4) 30" Cotton Breather cloth @ $3/yd

$024.00 (4) Non-Porous Release Film @ $6/yd

$438.00 VACUUM SUBTOTAL (1-12’ bag)

$032.40 (6) 3.2oz S2 cloth @ $5.40/yd

$050.67 (9) 5.6oz S2 cloth @ 6.65/yd

$098.25 (6) 3.9oz Carbonfiber cloth @ 16.38/yd (as substitute for 3.2oz S2)

$177.17 (1) 3 Gal System3 Epoxy Kit medium hardner

$016.00 (1) Pint Slow System3 hardner (for deck wraps)

$001.71 (1) 1" sailboard vent @ 1.71/each

$005.50 (1) Futures tail box @ $5.50/each

$011.00 (2) Futures side boxes @ 5.50/each

$059.67 (1) Futures Vector 460 Fin Set @ $59.67/each

$180.00 (1) Futures Fins Installation Jig @ $180.00/each

$534.12 GLASSING SUB (WITHOUT CARBON)

$599.97 GLASSING SUB (CARBON)

=======

$972.12 VACUUM/GLASSING MATERIAL SUBTOTAL (WITHOUT CARBON)

Skin/Core Materials from Fiberglass Supply/Solarbo/Local Home Depot

$042.81 (1) 1/8"x4’x8’ H-80 Divinycel @ $42.81/sheet (a sub for balsa skin)

$081.98 (1) 1/8"x42"x106" R63 Airex Sheet @ $81.98/sheet (a sub for balsa skin)

$122.80 (2) 1/16"x4"x48" Balsa sheet @ lot of 20 for $3.07/sheet

$070.00 (2) 2"x48"x96" 1 lb EPS Dow Insulfoam @ $35.00/sheet

$030.00 (2) 2"x24"x48" 1 lb EPS Dow Insulfoam @ $15.00/sheet

========

$222.80 BALSA SKIN SUB TOTAL

$142.81 DIVINYCEL SKIN SUB TOTAL

Shaping/Glassing Tools from FoamEZ

$383.00 (1) Pro Shaping Kit

$392.00 (1) Pro Glassing Kit

$192.95 (1) Pleskunas Abrasive Planer Blades (For EPS)

$021.95 (1) Fred Tool

$265.00 (1) Metal shaping racks

=======

$1254.85 SUB TOTAL

TOTALS

Reusable Material - $1,872.85

One Time Use (BALSA Board) - $576.92 (includes Resin costs)

===========

BALSA TOTAL = $2449.77

DIVINYCEL TOTAL = $1980.72

===========

Bottomline… never underestimate the monetary cost of what it takes to do craft like a pro…

Especially if you also have to rent a place just to setup shop… And there are cheaper poly/regular foam blank options… like just buying a pre-shaped blanks from your local shaper and then vacuum bagging it yourself with balsa and no expensive special glass on the inside or resin sucking wraps. It won’t be as lite and flexible but it’ll be a little stronger and maybe a little lighter than a 100" poly board. No divinylcel, corecell or airex shells either.

Anyone trying to do this for a living has paid dearly and probably why so few are apt to want to change when they’ve made all this financial commitment just to startup, build on and furnish their operation. Most importantly all these material costs obviously don’t include any of the talent aspect required to do this professionally too.

Although I’m about halfway accumulating things on this list, I have to ask myself every now and then…

What the hell am I doing here?

Although not as bad a new plasma tv, a car, highend stereo or other electronic gadget or fun toy, definitely an expensive way to test something out to provide you a bit more funand excitement in life…

I’m now worrying if this whole “duplicate Mr. Bert Burger’s project” expense nightmare is gonna all be worth it when I’m done. One day soon we should hopefully see some results from all this initial investment in materials…

I guess its also the cost of becoming a Swaylaholic…

9

“The lighter a board is, the faster it will accelerate” (Carl Olsen)

Hi Carl, That just isn’t necessarily the case. How about debating it at surfermag with Roy? :wink:

Just a small point!

I am understanding weight after carrying a 10 pound 4 ounce baby recently. :0

Where are those Smiley icons? :slight_smile:

Aloha/Aroha etc

Emma

10

BALSA TOTAL = $2449.77

DIVINYCEL TOTAL = $1980.72

Following your dream and making it real = Priceless

Good tools pay for themselves. Make it happen. Gil

11

T.W.I.M.C.

My take on the weight picture is as follows:

If you take two boards with the same configuration of different weights the lighter one will accelerate and decelerate faster. Depending on the bottom configuration the lighter one may be a skittery in rough condtions. However if the board has a paneled doomed or bellied bottom these features will tend to overcome the instability that the lighter board has. The heavier board will take more energy to turn will hold a line better and will carry its speed for a longer distance because it will decelerate more slowly. It will need more wave power to accelerate.

Consider that a 6’3" tow-in board will weigh from 18 to 27 lbs depending on how big the surf conditions it is intended for. The bigger the surf the heavier the board. The weight makes the board overcome choppy conditions more easily and the board will project well because it carries it’s speed so well.

In smaller surf boards have to be of a much lighter weight to size ration. The variables are infinite but as you learn your surfing style you will be able to figure out what kind of a combination will serve you best. Of course conditions have much to do with what will perform well.

Good Surfin’, Rich

12

doesnt a gallon of milk cost about $6 over there?

Theres a price for living in paradise…

Hey wait…you forgot the cost of the Autoclave…minor detail.

Just fake it for half the cost…over time you’ll get the rest.

Its taken Bert well over a decade to get where he’s at…an average person would take twice that long.

Hey wait…you forgot all the Automation costs…minor detail #2

Its not a nightmare if its just a hobby…but still frustrating occasionally…

focus on product first…then the rest will fall in place

13

Its crazy how expensive materials are over there in Hawaii! My setup for my board will end up significantly cheaper. I’d guess that the total setup would run my about $700 dollars (total board materials $160, vac system $350, planner $135). I went into this realizing that I could never make a board as good as Bert (or for that matter any professional shaper). There’s just too many variables. But that being said, I think that a good shaper could make a board that exceeds my ability to surf it. I believe in the “do it yourself” process. In creating my own product I learn more about myself as a surfer (for instance before I started this I rarely thought about what kind of surfer I was, I just surfed). What is important to a professional is rarely important to a do it yourselfer: TIME. If you are pursuing board building as a hobby it seems like you will eventually end up with too many boards. For that reason I think you should spend as much time developing the board the sparks your imagination as possible. If it takes me a month to make a rail it really doesn’t matter because time is not money for me. I’m not making a composite board now because it is the most efficient way to preceed, but because it offers the most potential for entertainment down the line. I was thinking last night that I really like the look of fabric inlay boards. If I can master the balsa rail system, I could invision making a balsa board with an divinycell nose. Then I could cover the divinycell with cloth. It would look very cool surrounded by the balsa. No other system offers as much potential for growth as this.

14

Yesterday with 5’8" x 18" x 2"…11lbs, balsa lam, epoxy. No problems guys!!

15

I haven’t been surfing long enough to have experienced 70’s boards but is it really weight thats making the difference or the shape of the board? Specifically rocker. In terms of straight line speed any board will have a sweet spot relating to the way the rocker fits the curve of the free surface. Generally a board with more rocker will be better suited to more up and down surfing, this is fast because obviously gravity will help to accelerate the board more, but when you try for straight trim the extra curve creates too much drag. Conversely a flat board won’t fit the shape of the wave as well going up or down the wave face, but trim across and board fits that much better. So you drop, bottom turn and really carry the speed in to trim where a modern rocker might create more drag and slow down quick unless you point the thing back down the face of the wave.

I was tought that to test anything properly you can only change one thing at a time. Why not try a 70’s spear weighing 7/8lb but with everything else the same, shape, fins, flex etc?

16

i have a stack of customers in there 50s , they all say riding lighter boards has knocked 20 years off there surfing , they feel like grommets again …

when using unconventional materials dont shape conventional boards …

every argument i hear against eps , epoxy , always comes back to shape …

it took me 5 years of building epoxy sandwich , before i got them to perform better than a p/u …

the shapes of p/u p/e boards have evolved to suit the materials …

building composite boards puts focus on different principles of physics …

trust me even tho you do lose some aspects , you gain way more in other areas , focus on the strengths of composite materials and make design changes based on what eps , epoxy, and creating sandwich structures can do to enhance the performance of a board …

dont look at urethane designs for inspiration …

not every urethane board performs , neither does every eps board …

just because one eps board didnt work , doesnt mean they all dont …

and on the logical side , i dont think people would wait a year for a board that costs twice as much if it didnt actually work …

i have customers who out of frustration ordered a polyester board from someone else , then come in and say ok dam it just put me on the list , i just blew 600 on a piece of crap , i hate surfing. they either except paying the 1000 and waiting a year , or except surfing a board that turns them back into a kook … before ever owning one of my boards they were quite happy on p/u p/e …

it works better than anything else you can imagine …

it justs takes time to work out the eleven secret herbs and spices …

i personally know other board builders whove gone down almost the exact road in construction as me , theyve picked up my boards and asked " what the hell is bert doing ?" , and now they build conventional boards still …

some guys never work out all the ingredients …

this technological advantage , keeps my profit margin intact , if it was that easy everyone would be doing it …

just like how anyone in there backyard can build a p/u and put pressure on an industry still in the backyard …

once you nail one and get the performance wired , then you will know exactly why its worthwhile to pursue composite construction …

regards

BERT

17

Bert,

You might like this quote, “the only good place for weight is in a steam roller”, Uffa Fox, who revolutionalised sailing.

Simon

18

Mahalo Bert

Very profetic words and something I’ve totally lost in the translation and had forgotton…

Quote:

when using unconventional materials dont shape conventional boards …

I think Eric Arakawa said it too in his SurfingMag article…

Weight is a component but this change in building technique/materials should also involve change in design…

Building ultralight strong standard design boards isn’t the right way to go…

I’ve been thinking building in strength more than performance in the whole epoxy-balsa lam process…

I noticed your boards are a bit normal but also just a bit different, like the pulled down bump squash “flyer” design I see in the tail to stiffen a pretty rounded continous curve profile you have going to the fins. You also seem to have alot of rocker in some boards but I’m sure its because you’ve gone thinner and much more flexible and the board flattens out under pressure like your stress test video. A light but flexible board that changes rocker but is stiff torsionally is a totally different animal than any surftech, boardwork, pointblank or linden I’ve used… Gary Linden’s little 6’8" “recycler” was the closest experienced I had until the fins and bottom totally delammed off… thin, a little wide and kind of stubby but very much a gem in it’s day '94-'95… I remember wishing I had bought more of them at the time before he shut down operations in Hawaii…

But you’re right it’s not weight you need to be concerned about it’s refining the design to support this new building process…

Small Horizontal+Perimeter stringers, weight in the rails, sandwihced deck and bottom and most importantly a different outline, foil and rocker profile to start with.

Actually I do have something in the works…

A widened out(22" vs 20") version on my 6’3" Bushman Fish in 1" EPS using an experimental technique of building the bottom separately from the top… Bamboo horizontal stringer epoxied to the top of the 1"EPS saran wrapped with a epoxied balsa lam bottom to the bottom of a board to lock in rocker into the flat 1" 1lb panel… I’m shaping and building all my bottom panels first then adding the varied thickness tops later under vacuum and finishing off the rail and deck as normal… maybe using just another 1" top with the full length 1mm bamboo stringer would be the a test… short, thin and wide flexible woodlammed EPS fish.

Thanks for the insight as always and go catch some…

Aloha

Always learning…

But always trying…

19

Oneula

The first rule of any foray into making anything for profit

Shop around for materials there are a lot of others out there who are making there profit out of suppling supplies, not every thing a supplier supplies is allways the right thing or is indeed even needed.

I will take one example peel ply, exotic material needed for epoxy lamination

if purchased from the local resin supplier.

So where else can you buy it ,Try the dress shop or even better the supplier that supplies the dress shop.The product, polyester dress lining material,do your own expriments and learn what difference the dye colours can do to your lamination,its not hard to work out

One of the hardest parts of any manufacturing foray is minimising the number of people that have a bite of your apple along the way.

All of them want to make a living,get in there and eliminate those that are just middle men.

Go out into other industries and look how others are doing things ,boatbuilders not just custom builders, production builders as well,cause even these two that build a product that looks the same do things differently,kitchen and furniture makers, they have been vacuuming things for years.

Good luck Mike

20

understanding weight…

Army Boots vs Basketball Sneakers

you can run in both…but in a fast redirectional full court pickup you wouldnt be caught dead in heavy hiking boots…and on that bumpy mountain trail hike (ah yes the Halalau Trail brings fond memories) wearing those “Airs” wouldnt be your first choice either.

Wear those airs for a long while …then switch to hiking boots…the boots will feel like concrete shoes…