Understanding Bert Burger's Technique

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I guess the bottom line that I am trying to put across is that you dont have to copy every thing that Bert has done, if you try logical things your end result will improve

There are many ways to skin that cat and many different roads all of which can lead to a better surfboard

I totally agree with this statement! Where I think Bert’s greatest strength is he completely understands how the board needs to behave in order to surf great.

Sabs, you are able to bag the inner glass, balsa, and outer glass in one shot?!!! How do you do this? Do you use prepregs, work super fast, infusion, or decline to state :wink: ?

Meecrafty, with a vent hole sandwich boards seem to be able to stand up to a lot of heat (I would even bet inside a car in a Florida summer)

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i really dont see the point of heavy results using these techniques…one could get the same with clark and heavy s-glassing with epoxy and its a hell of a lot easier…if youre gonna go thru the effort of vac bag composite might as well shoot for the moon and go ultraligh

I agree! I’m very new to board building so much of my boards weight is a product of inexperience. I think that my next board will probably end up super lite (however, when I first joined the forum I read that it took building almost 10 boards to be able to create the board that you have in your mind, this seems to be true)

Several months ago I posted a link to a provider of resin films. Basically drapable resin films that could then be set off with heat.

I’ll see if I can find the link again.

http://www.ylainc.com/products/data_sheets/rs_15h.htm

Don’t get me wrong here guys…

but what you guys, sabs, meecrafty, mark, danb, benny, shwuz have accomplished is inspirational and groundbreaking stuff for the masses.

But…

I think it’s a little deceiving for Bert to show us how his current stuff performs when in fact the tech and methods we’re using today is stuff he’s abandoned years ago. I mean he must be happy for sure to see all this grem activity out there discovering stuff that he’s known about for years…

In my business it’s not an acceptable apples to apples comparison of what he’s telling us is he’s able to achieve versus what we are doing today…

We are on the right path that’s for sure but it should an eye opening experience to see how much further we have to go how much more tech we have to invest in to catch up to where Bert is at today…

Bottomline to me is that what Bert’s doing today and showing us as far as completed board, may not be really achievable for your typical backyarder and more for a production/professional operation. What we are doing though is good and in most cases good enough but not the ultra thin, ultra flexible, super long lasting things that Bert’s able to pump out with his shop…

There’s so much we don’t know, so much to still learn…

that’s all this was

Bottomline to me is that what Bert’s doing today and showing us as far as completed board, may not be really achievable for your typical backyarder and more for a production/professional operation.

well that’s ok cuz im not trying to do what bert’s doin’…im only trying to better my last effort…in my view it keeps getting better and better…not a sunova but better than a surftech

back on a tech note…sabs mentioned a couple of weeks ago that i should look into my resin glass ratio…i did some rough estimates and im proly getting 2:1…i’ve got approx 15 ounces of cloth (very rough estimate) so i could have saved almost one pound by lowering the ratio…im not gonna go nuts trying to figure that one out but i know how/where i put the extra resin…so im confident i could save about 0.5…i’d say 5.5 is pretty good considering that was my very first balsa skin project and i used #1.5eps… three years ago i was satisfied with 7lb…LOL!

i have to say that the strength to weight thing has been a very interesting challenge for me personally…if only sabs would tell us how he gets those ratios down… :frowning:

I finally got to see a Sunova (they now seem to be running under the Nev name). Man are they light! While looking at the boards I’ve managed to figure out several things: how he gets the extra twang from diagonal balsa (I got to see Kelly Slater’s new board with all the goodies placed on the outside), a little about how he does infussion (done at very low pressure), and how he does the rails. I’ll post more when I get another look at them tomorrow. Bert’s definantly a craftman.

Hi Guys

Meecrafty,yes board thickness does change flex ,but so does reducing the balsa thickness in the right areas ,also extra laminate in areas changes flex as well.

For a morph bottom reduce the sandwich thickness on the bottom then support the deck with transverce or diaginal thin balsa,tie these to the rails and deck.

Now when you load up the weight on your foot the deck stays still and the bottom changes shape with the increasing load.At the same time depending on weather you go transverse or diaginal you may or may not change the flex.

Resin absolutly never put resin direct on to eps

For your inner glass pre wet it on a sheet of window glass,get every last extra drop of it with a squeege,Then when you peal it of the glass sheet to put it on the balsa inner side even more resin will be left on the glass.Thats just one way there are lots more.

As Greg and Bert have said if it does not need it for strength leave it out

Think about reducing the number of strips on the rails and the reduce them even more at the nose and tail areas,also the skin thickness once again this can then affect the flex and spring

Dan

No i said every thing but the outer laminate,I have tried doing the outer laminate before every thing else ,it works but is better if you infuse it over glass the you get a finished surface.

But even with a post outer glassing it really pays to seal the balsa first.

Just keep working on it and remember every little thing you put on the board adds to the weight

Mike

PS go Dan the man on the inside skin that cat!

hi sabs . i am agree with everything you are doing more or less. my thoughts so far .

thinner sandwhich OR none on the bottom

thicker and stiffer deck

Pre wet and remove excess resin

patches and or lighter glass in places

taper the stringers

get thinner on the deck sandwhich at the ends and toward the rails …

on to my fourth board nearly finished third…trying a different way each time

my next experiment will be as disscussed on this thread

1.glue on preformed rails (ureathane glue)

2.shape blank

3.pre make skins flat in vacuum with a post cure(for really tuff laminate) and high pressure

now for the next step im sure you have all thought of

bag on top and bottom skins at the same time with you guessed it

URETHANE glue (any takers)

im even thinking you could do you outside lam in the flat as well so all you need is a bit of glass on the rail and a hotcoat…Would this be possible any one else thought or tried this

Kia Ora

Paul

Bert with Nev is licensing the technology

http://www.nevsurfboards.com/surfburger.htm

If urathane glue is the same thing a Gorrila Glue then Benny had asked about it and there were several reasons the people (Bert included) did not like the idea (however, I can’t remember why). I’m under the impression that the bottom sandwich is extremely important. It has to do with panel flex which helps give the board its spring. One thing about Berts shortboard rails that really surprised me is that they are really small and that he uses small pieces of balsa (1-2 ft lengths were all I noticed on any of his shortboards, but one of his 8 footers had a piece that looked 2 2/2 foot).

pictures?

I didn’t take any but Bert said Daddio did.

I’ve got some, but can’t attach pictures anymore. Anybody know what’s up?

After seeing Bert’s boards I think that I came away with a better

understanding of whats going on with his boards and why they way

outperform surftechs. I did not ask Bert if any of my guesses

were correct, and its completely possible that I am completely wrong so

take from this long ramble whatever you think has merit and forget the

rest. I have come to the conclusion that building technique is

much less important than the philosophy that goes into building the

board. I think that this is why Bert once said that its easier

for him to train somebody from scratch than it is to take an

experienced builder get him up to speed. This is why Harbor can

make a great urethane board, but the shape does not transfer to

composite style building. When Bert says that his boards flex he

is not talking microscopic flex. I tried moving the nose of one

of his boards with my bare hands and had little problem. My son

(55 lbs) was able to stand on one of his boards and flex it to the

ground. I told Bert that I wasn’t sure that my boards flexed that

much so how could he be sure that his board actually flexed differently

because of the diagonal timbers amplifying the board’s flex pattern and

he looked at me like I smoked crack. His reply was that a lot of

things happen when you make the board thinner. When you see his

boards it is obvious that a lot of structure has been removed (light

glass, super thin rails, concaved deck). All these things help to

remove strength (rigidity) and encourages bending. A standard

looking board that is built in a vac bag system is too strong.

When a board flexes as much as Bert’s it has to store energy or it

would be a lifeless slug (thing bogey boards). For example, a

concaved board greatly increases the boards ability to bend along its

center axis. However, there is very little structure to store

energy when the board bends this way (think about the way we’ev all

been laying our balsa). Bert uses diagonal timbers to help the

board store energy when it flexes and then quickly return to shape (see

daddio’s picture). I have been spending a lot of energy trying to

get my rails looking perfect. I’ve been CA gluing the ends

together so they have tight joints with the longest pieces of wood

possible (in effect making them 1 long piece of balsa). My goal

what to make the strongest possible rail. Bert’s looks to be the

complete opposite. He used short pieces (1 - 2.5 feet) with

little gaps between the joins. I think that his would make the

rails more flexible. Since Bert’s boards are able to move you need to

change the shape in order to accentuate the movement. A

traditional board has very little flex movement and their shape

reflects this (narrow and comparatively boxy rails). Imagine

trying to bend a metal coat hanger. Put your fingers so they are

very close together and try to bend the hanger. Now put your

fingers 8-10 inches apart and try to bend the hanger. Its a lot

easier! I think this is one of the reasons Bert’s boards are wide

(the wider board encourages flex) compared to the traditional

board. The second reason is because we all need a little

flotation and the wide board gives us the foam we lost in the

concave. Once the board became wide the rails needed to become

skinny so that you could sink the rails (and it turn load up the

flex). Finally, the 1:1 resin ratio has more to do that just make

the board light. On my workbench I had some dried puddles of

resin and some dried 1:1 ratio glass. When I tried to bend the

resin only it always broke but the glass was able to move all

day. I think that a high resin content would encourage

brittleness in the board (which is the opposite of flex). I think

the answer to the question of where flex is important is: evenly along

the length of the board (this is why you can jump on the board) and in

the width of the last third of the board (this is where the twang comes

from). Equally important to flex is the board quickly returning

to shape. Yes, Bert does have some specialized construction

techniques that make his boards outstanding but they are not necessary

to make a really nice board. What I think really needs to be

experimented with is different glass schedules to see how little you

can use until the implode (Bert has said that his best boards only last

a year or two). This is what I’m going to start working on.

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Kenz

Tell us more

what cost and availiblity?

Mike

I spoke with an Airtech rep and he told me that it was a very new product and only available in Europe and other countries. But I think Hexcel might have some, so I’m going to see if we can get a sample for the event at Cerritos College this weekend.

One issue that might be a problem is the heat needed to get the resin to flow and cure. Currently, the temps required appear to be too high for EPS foam, but just as there are low-temp cure epoxies and prepregs, there is potential for the same in a resin infusion film. I was actually thinking if it would be practical to make you own.

By the way, some may be wondering why not just use a pregreg instead. Prepregs are very stiff and difficult to form around a surfboard without heating them up, which defeats the purpose. Where as using a dry stack with the resin film will still allow you to form the dry glass around the board.

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Several months ago I posted a link to a provider of resin films. Basically drapable resin films that could then be set off with heat.

This might work, but what I am told is that the resin infusion film is a little different than the resin film adhesive. They use the resin film adhesive to glue skins to honeycomb. So it’s designed to be more viscous. Resin infusion film has a lower viscosity when heated and flows to saturate the glass.

I think it is worth trying, though (if anyone has some lying around), since it is more widely available, For sure it should be considered when bonding parts without a dry reinforcement involved.

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I guess the bottom line that I am trying to put across is that you dont have to copy every thing that Bert has done, if you try logical things your end result will improve

There are many ways to skin that cat and many different roads all of which can lead to a better surfboard

I totally agree with this statement! Where I think Bert’s greatest strength is he completely understands how the board needs to behave in order to surf great.

I totally agree also. Instead of chasing the rainbow of what Bert’s doing (unless of course he tells us everything) why not figure out what you want from your board. All the info is here, or a short message away. There is unlimited knowledge among the members of this forum. Ask what you can do to get a certain attribute. There is design and then there is materials. If you look at it from this point of view, you may exceed your own expectations.

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URETHANE glue (any takers)

Yes, urethane glue. Especially when bonding skins to EPS. Why? Because it foams as it cures, penetrating and sealing the EPS. And it’s flexible. You have to use very little, however, or else it adds too much weight. It’s necessary to squeegee it on and vacuum bag it.

okay kenz ill try it next board .i also thought about a flexible marine type urethane sealant…went snowboarding today and got to thinking up the top of the mountain…

theres so many things to try … After seeing those bert pics from the US open …Im deffinately gunner go thinner…I actually think you would get a better bond then standard epoxy with a foaming glue and they are flexible as well… maybe bert does use a foaming epoxy…

ureathane sets in a couple of hours so your ready to glass the same day…

Im not sure the skin to core bond is that important if the skin is the right density /strength

Its in one of the threads, Bert uses 3 types of epoxy including a foaming epoxy