what differs it from reg resin. ive never used it nor do i plan on using it soon im just curious on the subject. also has anyone used that ast resin?? seems kinda neat. a little pricey for me but neat. anyone know about this? im sure ill have plenty of answers on the epoxy but what about ast? dk
I’ll say 1 thing the stuff is simply amazing for 100’s of uses not only for surfboards or boats,BUT!!! It can be real toxic to some guys,and seems to have a accumlative effect,Some guys use it for years w/o problems then BOOM it bites em in the rear, Other guys I’ve seen only worked w/ it a few times and had some real adverse reactions.Some guys no bother them at all! I tend to use it only when I REALLY need the strength factor it provides,And when working w/ it use all the precautions I can,Gloves,Long sleeve shirt and or a throw away painters suit,And w/o fail a respirator. I know guys who can’t even smell the stuff and go into a Dr.Jeckel and Mr.Hyde reaction. I’ve found vinylester to be a great replacement for epoxy,Not nearly as toxic and almost as strong as epoxy,And about twice as strong if not more than polyester. I’ve never built a surfboard w/ vinylester but know guys who have w/ good results,You can use a regular Clark foam blank.But have used vinylester on boats w/ excellent strength and longevity. I’ve heard from reliable soures that most all the epoxy boards are being turned out in 3rd world countries so that kinda tells the story in itself. Could be the cost factor but I tend to think it has a lot to do w/ the epoxy being real toxic stuff,Can’t say for sure,but kinda have to lean that way. Sorry you wanted to know the good aspects,Well,That there is my view,Mahalo
Looked thru a couple sites on your AST systems, Was a new product to me,Here’s what I found,If the Military uses it(which they do) most times the stuff is pretty radical,Years ago had some epoxy bottom paint a guy got from the Navy supposedly fom Submarines,We used it on a couple Commercial F/V’S(Fishing Vessels),When we put it on it had this weird sweet smell,The stuff lasted for years and was bullet proof,But the headache and dizziness even w/ a top of the line respirator was too much,I made sure I never dealt w/ it again. Here’s a number for the MSDS& Tech questions from a AST site:1-800-642-9641 Seems like its more a high traffic floor coating,Anti-slip coating or something like cold tar epoxy(Another Toxic like hell product,Seems like if it’s good it’ll also kill brain cells and eat your liver!!)Most of these type of products have a “right to know” message on the side of the can,That tells me use a your own risk!! Not really sure what you plan to use it for? ALOHA
There is quite a lot of information on epoxies on this site in the achives but I’ll print some stuff here. Lundy sounds as if he isn’t all that up to date on the latest stuff either. Here are some of the advantages. Epoxy is stronger so the board comes out stronger with better resin Since epoxy is stronger it takes less resin in the laminate to do the same job as polyester. And epoxy has a slightly light specific weight. This makes a lighter board even with the same blank used for the poly. In fact with epoxy on Clark foam you can use a green blank and it will come out the same weight as the same glassed poly lamination using a blue. And MUCH stronger. You can laminate ANY foam with epoxy. Not just urethane. This gives you the option of making your own blanks. Our new epoxy system as fast as MEK initiated poly so production times are quicker than in the past. Cosmetically epoxy is clearer making a whiter board. Yellowing is also slower than with poly. Epoxy can be cleaned up with soap (GoJo type) and water. There is no need for clean up solvents. Our Epoxy has very little vapor (odor) so work can be done almost anywhere. No masks are necessary with just moderate ventilation. You use approximately 1/3 the amount of epoxy resin to build a board as you would polyester. These last three, immediately above, give you an indication of the reasons epoxies are better for the environment and for labor. Epoxy gives the laminator more work time and there is no real “gel” time to catch you. The resin just gradually thickens as it begins to harden. This allows a higher quality laminate. All the newer fabrics (Kevlar, carbon, s glass, etc.) were designed for use with epoxy. Not surprisingly, they all perform best in an epoxy matrix. On the health issues, with our epoxy (Resin Research), I have never seen any sensitization that doesn’t involve a co-toxin. The one in particular in our business is acetone. It serves as a vehicle for toxins through the skin. We eliminated acetone from our shop long ago and have never had any problems. We now use soap and water, which work better anyway. Our resins also do not contain phenol or formaldahyde which many other systems do. These are some other co-toxins I mentioned above. Also our hardeners are based souly on cycloaliphatic diamine technology as uposed to straight chain amines. This also reduces toxicity. We also have safeguards built into our formulations to reduce toxicity. This makes our hardeners much safer to use than most other epoxies.
Mr. Loeh, Was wondering if yo had a minute to answer of few questions about epoxy. In your last post you specify “your epoxy resin”…do you produce this yoursefl? Or do you work in conjunction with an outside source to manufature it. I ask because I would be very interested in giving epoxy a try. You seem very certain that you ahve a great resin and I would want to know if it is commercially available? Also as far as the cost basis compared to polyester…say for a gallon, I can get a gallon of laminating resin for around $30, how does your resin compare? Can you use a UV catalyst with epoxy? I know that gel times with epoxy is slower so this might make the UV catalyst issue moot. On that note, what exactlly do you kick the stuff with?? Lastly, how well does epoxy work with resin pigment? Do i need epoxy pigments, or can I use what i am currently using for polyester? Wold in your opinion, epoxy work well if you wanted to get a nice medium colored tint in the lay-up? Thanks so much! Drew
Just speaking as a hack that occasionally repairs dings, epoxy is pretty cool. I use it now for all my repair jobs. It doesn’t smell, sets really slow so I can take my time, and sets up hard when cured. I don’t need any special mixes for a gloss coat, just sand and polish it to a glassy finish. Little bumps now don’t crack the glass, they leave little scratches that can be sanded down and repolished. To clean up, I just use a little denatured alcohol and soap and water. I now kinda chuckle reading all these rants on this BB on the evils of epoxy. It’s like there is some underground conspiracy to wipe out this awful epoxy stuff.
Drew - Greg may answer, but I’ll throw in my 2cents. I’ve used poly pigments with Greg Loehr’s Resin Research epoxy and it worked fine. It was a tiger stripe pattern on an otherwise clear board. I don’t know if this would be the best way to go, or if doing a full tint or opaque with poly pigments would be a good idea. but for stripes it worked for me. the cost per gallon is more expensive than poly resin, about 2-3 times more per gallon, but you can use less of it in laminating and… with the cost of the epoxy you are getting about 1/2 gallon of the hardener, with the ratios used the liquid volume you end up with is much greater than with a gallon of poly and a few squirts of MEKP. So… This system goes much further than poly. I’m no pro at laminating, but with a gallon of epoxy I lammed a 7’6" and a 6’2, each" with sanding coat and gloss coat, and still had enough left over to lam another short board (been using it for repairs though). If I’d been more careful I could have gotten 3 full boards out of the Gallon set of RR epoxy. live and learn. I think a pro laminator might do much better too. It’s a good product. Call RR, the # is in the Resources section. My 2.5 cents, I guess. Eric J
Eric, So for a hot coat and a gloss coat, you don’t need to add anything? Just sand and polish? No Thinner, or wax needed?
Drew - There is an additive (called additive F) but I did not use it. RR Epoxy cures gin clear and with a good shine. The F stuff, I think, may help it flow out better on the hot coats. But for the boards I did was not necessary. Note that you can sand lamination epoxy, it cures hard, without wax or additives. Between lam and sanding coat I lightly sanded, and then taped and hotcoated. Using the same resin exactly. I understand that if you can hot coat directly after the lam cures you don’t need to sand at all. I had to work on some sloppy areas on the rails where my squeegee technique was less than successful. I was busy cleaning up the laps for a while and figured I’d rough up the surface a bit. Otherwise I’d probably have skipped sanding before the hc altogether. All in all, epoxy is easier and cleaner. I must admit, in a perverse way I kinda like the smell of poly … I’ll miss that. Eric J
Drew - There is an additive (called additive F) but I did not use it. RR Epoxy cures gin clear and with a good shine. The F stuff, I think, may help it flow out better on the hot coats. But for the boards I did was not necessary. Note that you can sand lamination epoxy, it cures hard, without wax or additives. Between lam and sanding coat I lightly sanded, and then taped and hotcoated. Using the same resin exactly. I understand that if you can hot coat directly after the lam cures you don’t need to sand at all. I had to work on some sloppy areas on the rails where my squeegee technique was less than successful. I was busy cleaning up the laps for a while and figured I’d rough up the surface a bit. Otherwise I’d probably have skipped sanding before the hc altogether. All in all, epoxy is easier and cleaner. I must admit, in a perverse way I kinda like the smell of poly … I’ll miss that. Eric J
hmm, some great responses, thanks for all the informative answers. a couple more things 1) whats the price difference? and 2) is it harder to work with easier or what. if its so great why isnt poly just obsolete by now. as of what ive heard posted it sounds perfect thanks again dk
Why isn’ poly obsolete now? gee, could be that the movers and shakers in the industry don’t want to change --their systems are in place and have been for many years and it’s all they know and don’t want to learn…old dog-new trick etc… I’ve been riding and working with epoxy boards for 11 years now and i will not buy a polyester board again…the ride is great, the strength is unreal and they are just plain better boards
i see, whats the price difference? dk
Can someone elaborate on how it is that it takes less resin? My glass jobs (polyester) have gotten much better on the last few boards, and I think that part of it is because I’ve been using MORE resin. I end up wasting a bit, but it assures that my laps are thoroughly saturated and gives me some extra to spread over the top to hit dry spots (allowing me to pull it dry on first pass and let less soak in). Does less epoxy soak into the foam, or weave? I don’t understand how it can take less… but 2 1/2 boards from 1 gallon?.. that’s insane (or maybe I just waste a lot of poly resin)
I myself am going to start making the move toward epoxy with gregs RR products, If you are a decent glasser the cost balances out well if you can actually use the amount of resin he says you should, if its 33% more but you use 66% less than poly, the cost should be about the same, if your sloppy and waste resin than you will have that affected in your cost. I have talked to greg a bit and assume these prices are public: from greg: Below I’m writing some tips on making our stuff easier to use. If you take your time epoxy is actually easier to laminate than polyester, uses much less material and eliminates harmful chemicals in the factory. 1. Mix ratio must be adhered to. Deviation from the mix ratio will keep the resin from attaining a full cure. Also the material must be THOROUGHLY mixed. If not there can be soft spots. We use metered buckets (I’m sending you one which we get at the local hardware store) to assure proper mix. We use large paint stir sticks (like the ones hardware stores give you to stir paint). All our resins are 2 to 1 mix ratio by volume. The metered buckets work unreal, actually better than pumps and we laminate right out of those buckets. 2. Additive F. We use it in every batch we shoot, including laminates. It eliminates blush which is the biggest problem in building epoxy boards. It only takes 1cc per ounce of hardener in the mix. We put it in after pouring the resin and hardener into the bucket and then mix them all at once. It makes the resin a bit cloudy but clears out when the resin cures. 3. When laminating, the first thing to do is to pour all the resin out and spread it over the glass. You then wet the rails and tuck them. This gives the resin time to soak into the cloth on the flats. Polyester must be pushed through the cloth. Epoxy just soaks in and it does that in its own good time. It can’t and shouldn’t be forced. Additive F actually helps with this quite a bit. After it soaks in, squeegee out any air and remove any excess. We use plastic, “spreader,” type squeegees. We’ve found that they move epoxy better than rubber squeegees do. They take a couple boards to get wired but after the initial learning curve laminating is much easier. 4. We use VERY little resin. Below is an example of our use levels for different size boards. As there is no “gel” time, any resin left over can be used on the next board. If you run short you can easily mix up additional resin to finish with. Usually we just work out of one bucket and simply keep mixing more material as needed. It isn’t the same, “this bucket for this board,” as polyester. These are estimates for total mixed material. 6’ and under - 9 -12 oz. bottom 12-15oz. deck 7’ and under - 12 -15oz bottom 15-18 oz. deck 8’ and under - 18 - 21 oz bottom 21- 24 oz. deck 9’ and under - 24 - 27 oz bottom 27- 33 oz deck Hot coats run just a bit more than an ounce per foot. For instance a 6’ board would take about 7 oz. per side. Longboards, 9’, take about 12-15 oz. per side. If your glossing use a bit less than a hot coat. We use 3" disposable white bristle brushes for hot coating. We don’t clean them. We use them for one batch and pitch em. Not only do we feel that their not worth cleaning but we’ve also had problems in the past with contamination from cleaned brushes which manifested itself in bad hot coats. New brushes always make for clean hot coats. 5. Do not use acetone for clean up and never let contaminated acetone touch the skin. Any toxicity problems we’ve seen in the past always included contaminated acetone. Not only that but acetone doesn’t work that well with epoxy anyway. Leaves everything sticky. For your hands use disposable vinyl gloves. Clean gloves between boards with scrap fiberglass. I usually cut scrap and pile it neatly on the table so I have plenty ready. Clean your squeegee with scrap glass. Anytime the squeegee gets slick I just wipe it and my gloves down. When the gloves get funky, peel em off and put on a new pair. 10 cents a pair is cheaper than acetone. With so little resin being used very little goes anywhere except on the board so things tend to stay much cleaner. We don’t ever get more than a drop or two on us. If you do get some on you, use Go-Jo or Fast Orange or some other waterless cleaner with water to get it off. These clean epoxy more effectively and are much safer to use than acetone. 3 Pt set: 2 Pt. Resin, 1 Pt. Hardener: $26 1.5 Gal. set: 1 Gal Resin, 1/2 Gal. Hardener $85 3 Gal set: 2 Gal Resin, 1 gal. Hardener $155 7.5 Gal. set: 5 Gal Resin, 2.5 Gal. Hardener $348 15 Gal. set: 10 Gal. Resin 5 Gal. Hardener $626 Prices are FOB Melbourne Fl. or Tucson Az. which is now open. Thanks, Greg Im assuming that the flow of epoxy is better than poly so you can work it easier therefore not wasting as much resin, also your workability is longer so you can collect and reuse instead of rushing to meet a Gel deadline. DREW 30 bucks a gallon???..Im glad im not in the northeast. Good luck guys and sorry greg if I overstepped anything by posting this http://www.surfboardglassing.com
most informative Eric. Couple more questions. How does weather affect Epoxy. Cold, humidity?? Are curing times drastically affected by these two as poly is?? I would assume that thier is a HazMat shipping fee??? is this true!! Eric, have not made contact yet with Walker. i have called a couple of times, but always get an answering machine. Oh well. Once again thanks for the info Drew
Im not 100% sure, I think weather is not a factor, I know there are ideal temps but i dont think results vary as much as poly. As far as a Haz-mat fee, Youd have to ask greg or someone who has had items shipped, there might not be, I dont beleive epoxy has the same flammability as poly. Keep on walker, have you left a message? They are small time so they keep odd hours. Im going to offer to finish thier website as soon as im over there next they need blank info and a means to email orders in. http://www.surfboardglassing.com
Drew, Not sure what you mean about Walker. I have not used them but maybe you got their # from someone else here named Eric… or maybe I posted it sometime. I have the # and do want to get some blanks from them one of these days. and, Surflab posted the GL info too. As for epoxy in the cold or humid… I’ve only used RR epoxy in the summer. It was humid but it worked fine for me here in NY. no blush problems, cured hard in 2 hours, and no additive F either. I don’t think epoxy will cure well below 55, but that is from very limited personal experience of doing a few repairs with it recently in cooler weather. Best bet for laminating in the cold seems to be UV activated poly resin. As long as the sun is strong it goes off. should be warmed up to wet out the cloth first. Best for epoxy, from memory - heard here, is a controlled environment about 70-75 degrees. Hope that helps, Eric
sory about the confusion, thought you were someone else. thanks for the info about epoxy. Mighty helpful! where in Ny are you anyhow. i am in monmouth county NJ. near belmar, manasquan
just outside of the city in the burbs… still means a 45 minute drive to the ocean though, feh! Manasquan is such a nice set-up. Kind of like a version of west end 2 on LI with better prevailing winds. I’m headed to Fla in a few weeks. That’ll be a nice change. then back to reality till spring. Best, Eric J