Where should wide point be on a single-fin shortboard?

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hi bill b

thats a nice board! are you going to ride it yourself? what fin did you end up going with?

thanks.

Thanks Josh

The board is for a customer. He leaves for Japan Sunday morning so I won’t be riding it!

I reccommended two different fins. I don’t know which he chose as I wasn’t at my shop when he picked it up this morning. I was mowing my lawn! I have a standard fin from back in the 70s that I call my Hotdog fin. It is around 7.5 deep and not too raked. Since the tail on this board was a bit wider, I also suggested another one with a bit more depth and rake.

I wasn’t sure how hard he would press the board so I left it up to him to choose.

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hi bill b

thats a nice board! are you going to ride it yourself? what fin did you end up going with?

thanks.

yep, billy doesn’t know it yet but i’m draggin him out to small pipe in the morning with that board he just finished…it looks like we must have stolen the same template back in the 70’s from gery somebody…i can’t wait to see him droppin in with the sun bouncing off his happy face again… danny

Aloha Danny

Your right, that does look like an old Lopez… or … Barnfield, he did a bunch of those diamond tails back then too! Ha! Personally, I probably would have made it more of an arc tail if it would have been up to me.

The customer actually requested a diamond tail. The rest of the template I mostly freehanded. Then I traced a template onto masonite for later use. I could have dug through piles of old templates to find an old one that would match but it was quicker to just create a new one. Besides most of those old ones whould have had wider noses and wide points further up. Which wasn’t what I was interested in making for this board. I didn’t notice the similarity to the early 70s Lightning Bolts till you mentioned it. I guess that look is just fused in my mind somewhere and pops out without thinking about it!

I have a different viewpoint on the widepoint… riding characteristics are not dictated by the location of the widest point at all, any more than any one other single variable.

In naval architecture, there is the “Curve of Areas” which describes the cross sectional area of a hull at 20 equally spaced sections along the length of the hull. It has significant influence on the characteristics of a displacement hull. Let’s take that concept to a surfboard, and instead of cross sectional area (and the resultant volume), let’s look at the distribution of width (area) on the hull as you move from one end to the other.

You have to stand somewhere; the curve of areas determines where, because you need sufficient lift to balance your weight. (Of course, this is a static situation, but the dynamic situation follows intuitively). “Modern shortboards” turn so well because the curve of areas makes you stand relatively far back on the tail, where the pivot point is located, regardless the number of fins. Coupled with low mass (narrow, thin) at the nose, there is relatively little inertia to overcome when you want to turn. So… “modern shortboards” turn quickly, and it’s not really about where the wide point is.

The same “modern shortboard” has distinct disadvantages compared to the single fins which the older of us rode at one time, but marketing (fake), decreased turning radius (real), and the desire to "surf like Bruce/Andy/who-da-f**kever, have combined to make them the board of preference.

For all that, my almost-all-the-time board is a 7’10" x 20.5" x 3" round pin single fin. Right out of the 80x, maybe, but it’s more agile than I am, it outpaddles most of the normal run, and has sufficient rocker to have saved my bacon, lotsa times, lotsa places, lotsa years. It hasn’t snapped when I get stuffed, and for all that, it’s over five years old and still in far condition. Anyone get that kind of life from a “modern shortboard”?

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I have a different viewpoint on the widepoint.... riding characteristics are not dictated by the location of the widest point at all, any more than any one other single variable.

In naval architecture, there is the “Curve of Areas” which describes the cross sectional area of a hull at 20 equally spaced sections along the length of the hull. It has significant influence on the characteristics of a displacement hull. Let’s take that concept to a surfboard, and instead of cross sectional area (and the resultant volume), let’s look at the distribution of width (area) on the hull as you move from one end to the other.

You have to stand somewhere; the curve of areas determines where, because you need sufficient lift to balance your weight. (Of course, this is a static situation, but the dynamic situation follows intuitively). “Modern shortboards” turn so well because the curve of areas makes you stand relatively far back on the tail, where the pivot point is located, regardless the number of fins.

Charlie, you have a good sense of what is going on but I don’t fully agree with your assessment. The fin amounts, angles and tilts have a great effect on the dynamic lift allowing the surfer to stand much further back than the actual “area of curves” or thickness would allow or indicate. Therefore they have to be acknowledged in any consideration for why modern surfboards work they way they do. The pivot point you mention exists because of the location of the fins and the “area of curves”. Look at the foot dents in any tri fin and you will see that they are all just forward of the side fin regardless of the “area of curves”. The “area of curves” is significant but not as much as the fin placement is. In dynamic use the surfer is standing where he can counteract and control the energy generated by the side fins, not the template width.

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Coupled with low mass (narrow, thin) at the nose, there is relatively little inertia to overcome when you want to turn. So.... "modern shortboards" turn quickly, and it's not really about where the wide point is.

The wide point or apex of the template curve is directly connected to the width of the nose and tail, assuming we are working with a relatively smooth arc between them all. So while I agree with much of what you say, your comment that “riding characteristics are not dictated by the location of the widest point at all” is simply not accurate. The wide point on a properly shaped board is a reflection of all the measurements that make up the template. And these measurements can effect the riding characteristics of the board significantly. It isn’t the wide point per se that matters so much but rather how the overall widths of the board wind up nudging the wide point around.

The rearward fullness you describe with your “area of curves” was a big change but it also shifted the wide points back in proportion to accommodate it. It is pretty hard to get clean curves on these boards without moving the wide point back.

Don’t under estimate the value of the wide point. It is not only a regulator of the template curve but is also a clear signal of what is happening in the rest of the template.

Additionally, both the bottom curve and the thickness flow have to work in harmony with the template and visa versa. I don’t overly focus on the wide point to any exceptional degree but like the vertical ends of the board, the wide point is the horizontal end of the board and where that side to side end of the template is, in relation to the nose and tail is, important.

By playing with it and the foil and rocker and the fins, I can create boards that will surf longer then their true lengths or shorter than their true lengths and the wide point location is a huge factor in this. Be they vintage single fins or contemporary tri fins.

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The same "modern shortboard" has distinct disadvantages compared to the single fins which the older of us rode at one time, but marketing (fake), decreased turning radius (real), and the desire to "surf like Bruce/Andy/who-da-f**kever, have combined to make them the board of preference.

We all have our preferences on personal equipment and I surely respect yours. And I am with you on the modern computer shaped clone of a clone of a clone that is being sold as the appropriate surfboard for most, simply due to its use by pros. Yet I am not convinced that the modern short board is a sinister plan of some brilliant marketing execs. It is more likely the result of the common, human nature flaw, of seeking acceptance by not stepping too far away from the pack. Therefore, buying the accepted fashion is much more important to most people than true function is any day! And how much more fashionable can you be then wearing/riding/owning/drinking/driving/etc what the world champion of your preferred sport does.

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For all that, my almost-all-the-time board is a 7'10" x 20.5" x 3" round pin single fin. Right out of the 80x, maybe, but it's more agile than I am, it outpaddles most of the normal run, and has sufficient rocker to have saved my bacon, lotsa times, lotsa places, lotsa years. It hasn't snapped when I get stuffed, and for all that, it's over five years old and still in far condition. Anyone get that kind of life from a "modern shortboard"?
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The same “modern shortboard” has distinct disadvantages compared to the single fins which the older of us rode at one time, but marketing (fake), decreased turning radius (real), and the desire to "surf like Bruce/Andy/who-da-f**kever, have combined to make them the board of preference.

As an all around surfboard and if you want to surf a variety of ways, the modern thruster is inferior. It’s a one style of surfing board, designed to surf one way. At the time is was created, surfing on the pro tour was being governed by rail to rail surfing and still is. Also, all those making money off the sport made it during that time and perfected the cheaply built replica of the status quo on the tour.

Shapers have not minded because they also became easy to mill or shape with easy to shape blanks.

Singles are still the best for variety and for speed if shaped properly. The thrusters are actually sticky and slow, but go rail to rail well. Kind of like an old porshe, great for zipping around and making statments, but thats about it.

interesting discussion…totally agree with BB on widepoint and template curvature…makes a big difference imo.

isnt the general theme of a single fast easy flow surfing?

if so i’d use a clean outline with the widepoint no further back than middle…proly pushed a bit more forward

solo, the only thing ‘wrong’ with the modern shortie is its mass mis-application so yeah i agree with you…i suspect one of the reasons guys like charlie dont dig’m because he’s a big tall heavy guy…there’s no comparison between him and the avg diminutive pro…so put hobgood on a chip and he’ll rip…scale up the same board for charlie and its not so great cuz a scaled up board is much heavier so the chip-esque lightning response isnt there…plus bigger guys have higher centers of gravity which affects rider input to the board and thruster performance is largely defined by rider input

about the closest mainstream board a big guy can ride to get the small chip response is a surftech or similar ultralight…but not everyone was made to surf a pro like thruster…

i love watching smooth easy singlefin style surfing…machado on a single fin is very artful…if the waves here were more conducive to that, i’d be riding single fins occasionally as well

cheers

hi “Bill B” !

…do you have a rocker / foil profile photo , as well as a shot of the bottom, of that white single fin you posted here , please ?

cheers !

 ben

Thanks for the info Bill.

Looks like it will go unreal in Japan.

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hi “Bill B” !

…do you have a rocker / foil profile photo , as well as a shot of the bottom, of that white single fin you posted here , please ?

cheers !

 ben</blockquote></div>

Here is the profile. Bottom will come later if I get time

thanks Bill !