.I don’t want to rile anybody… because I know this is a sore subject to many of you (especially pertinent to the more “commercial” among us). While there has been increasing mechanization (autocads/autocams), and much of the “production” work going overseas (hate to relegate to the word “production work” when a lot of savvy, skill, and craftsmanship is involved) …we will be increasingly relied upon for our DESIGN work, and our “MODEL” testing. I guess what I’m trying to say is that although the mass production has kicked up to dangerous levels to the people who make their livings from boardbuilding (chiefly),… I’d tell them “don’t give up the ship”. (try to adapt and don’t give away your creative domain and business rights so easily). I really feel bad for the folks who’ve put their hearts and (virtual) souls into their work …only to have a good part of their livelihood taken from them. (Many may have INCREASED their profit in the new environment). The price of boards has also been of issue…value or price for what goes into a board. It’s as if shapers from the past prophecised (sp?) the coming of mass production…which may be why early guys were so secretive about technique. (loss of business). There will ALWAYS be a place for the Innovator, the Designer, the creative people. From early times people have always schemed of easier ways to increase the output of their product (mostly to make more money). More is not always better for everyone…as we can see from some of the downsides (painful) to surfing. (proliferation of mere product isn’t necessarily good for surfing…while progression is). We also have to be realistic about “finished product” versus comparative “worth”. Generally speaking when something is mass produced, the price “should” come down (yes?/no?). Depends. Is the mass produced product better in truth? Maybe yes, maybe no. Depends. I know a lot of you feel strongly about this, and I just wanted to ruffle a few feathers and, maybe start a dialogue. Thanks for any response. P.S. When you create something precious, the world ought to take notice. (that goes for the conceptual ideas, as well as the actual product). If you build it they will come.
In regards to mass production: I would include production shaping in this catagory - the guys who mow out a regular number of a certain model or design. Usually these days they eventually get a close tolerance blank to minimize the shaping time and maximize the blank strength - something which helps standardize time and materials. With true mass production there should be the most efficient cost aquisition of materials, usually in bulk. With the manufacturing process reduced to it’s most efficient, coupled with reduced material costs, there should be a subsequent price reduction. Mass produced boards should not cost as much or more than custom or limited production run boards! There is the notion, and that’s about all I’ll call it, that they can use the price structure used by drug companies: high initial prices to ostensibly cover R&D costs. Maybe some of you will disagree, but they are hardly the same thing, if for no other reason than experiemental boards can still be sold off to partially recoup expenses. There is another notion that selling boards is like selling cars or horses: let the buyer beware. Let demand regulate the price. It’s a free country, so people can do what they want, but I would suggest this is very short-sighted. The final pricing method/option is in many ways quite valid: the board as work of art. Pay class price for a Velzy, Frye, etc. I would suggest you could probably count on both hands and both feet the number of people who can legitimately claim this, since this whole line is the result of years of solid labor plus a lot of factors outside the individuals own hands.
I personally think the custom end of things is headed for much the same fate as other custom sports equipment. That means our future is in producing the high end stuff for the more knowledgeable participants involved. That to me means a shift in technology to the high end which is to compete with today’s molded products. Presently they have the best strength to weight ratios and the best resistance to fatigue. They also have the attention of the surf media and good financing programs for retailers. And that last fact is the one that may effect us the most. Many retailers are embracing these products, and as builders, the loss of these less than loyal outlets is the real nail in the coffin of this industry. Production? In the US? Kiss it off gang. I don’t see a future there. Let’s look at this from the perspective of a production manufacturer. Let’s say I make and sell 10,000 surfboards a year and the cost of that production is somewhere in the neighborhood of $225 per board. Mr. Chen from Shanghai approaches me with a price of $125 landed in Long Beach. Now I’m a surfboard builder and I take pride in my product, and I care about my workers and their families. But Mr. Chen is offering me one million bucks in additional profits. His product is shaped on the same machines that presently shape my boards here and the quality of the product is as good as I get in the US. I’m a businessman. I’m in business to make money. One year at one million dollars in additional profits is more than I’ll make in the entire rest of my board building career. How do I say no? And yet they have. For the sake of the American craftsman. Everyone should realize that the production houses, the glass shops, had better figure out how to offer a better product than the competition or watch it all go away. And so you know exactly who we are competing against, Mr. Chen (that’s actually the guys name) approached ME at the ASR show wanting to buy more epoxy in one shipment than I’ll sell this year, paid for in advance. I considered and decided no… for now. Again, for the sake of the American craftsman. But these guys are aggressive. They WANT your market and they mean to get it! They are organized and financed and the one thing they know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that they can BEAT YOUR PRICE! What they can’t beat is the same thing no overseas business in the world can beat. American technology. But that means that the American surfboard builder must now accept the responsibility go after new technology. To advance the craft. The goals I’m reading here on Swaylocks are generally “how to.” How to do an acid splash. How to trim a lap. How to mix a tint. There certainly is a place for nostalgia but what about taking the time to go somewhere new? How can I use carbon fiber? What can be done with epoxy and polystyrene? How to do an aluminum inlay? What about wood veneers? How about synthetic fabrics? How to make a stronger, lighter board is the future we must seek. We can no longer afford to be complacent about this. We can’t afford to watch as Thailand beats us with technology and China beats us with price. Whining about Surftech and Randy French isn’t going to make it go away. Beating them with thoughtful creativity, innovation and ingenuity. Beating them with better product. That’s the defense.
I was brought up in the Jewelry business in R.I. R.I. was the capitol of the costume jewelry industry. Then, one would view the classified add’s Help Wanted.Page after page of manufactures looking for help. As of this mornings Providence Journal Help wanted 2 JOB’s. The heavy duty guy’s all have their products mfg. in the “Far East”. If it’s the high end of the market and gold it’s Italy, fine finished good’s all hand made and finished. Sad but true. The end result for me. Thank God, I had graduated from sweeping floors @ 10 years old, piece work by 14. At 20, the owner put me out on the road, by 23 became a multi-lined independant mfg. rep. (sales & marketing) self employed. 29 years of travel, paid the mortguage sent the girl’s to college and 5 years ago retired at 49. To do it today, impossible. Well maybe not impossible but unprobable. Point being, if your out doing this to feed your family, pay the mortguage, etc., etc. You had better be listening to Greg.
i would like to offer my opinion- all of the older members of our tribe(manufacturing end) have given so much in reguards to product development over the years in the name of progression, they seem to have forgotten that in this quest for lighterstongerfaster(read as such)that we younger people (some of us) do in fact embrace nostalgic customs for the mere fact the we were not born during a particular period in surfing’s history. we want to experience different feelings- that is what surfing is all about- the feeling you get… well, not to utilize this passage in any form of dissent, however, the fact also remains that some people could give a big shit when it comes to how lightbutstrong their board(s) are- you know it is a comnon joke among a certain stretch of orange co. coast line - the reason people wanted light boards were so that they could carry them to and from the beach. i have cked out our ‘competition’s’ product and can say i am not worried at all about the impending 35,000 ft wave of chinese production ability. if it is the buying public’s decision to go ahead and believe every little hype that bleets it’s way out into this world as an absolute, then by all means let them- and let the industry collapse unto itself as we currently know it- the people who have dedicated their lives to surfing and making vectors to ride them with, will be laughing hystericly. at least i know i will be. and to think, i didnt even have to ‘sign on’ with surftech. ha ha aha aha ahah hahhahahahhahhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I am 56 years old and I enjoy building the fancy longboards of the past.It is what I enjoy and at this point I build only a few boards every year.It’s a pleasure to share what many consider a “lost art”.I am, however, somewhat handicapped by arthritis so my stand up surfing days are a thing of the past.I still have the craving to ride a wave so I am going to build myself a paipo or “belly” board…I have the design in mind.So…I am going to build it out of epoxy.I want it light and with a special rocker and foil.Sounds like Greg is the guy and I am probably going to pop in the Resin Research facility with masonite rocker template in hand.Old technology…new technology…the best of both worlds. R. Brucker (I welcome any ideas for this board…I am 6feet tall and a fat 200 lbs.)
Greg… You mentioned the perpetual quest for stonger and lighter…With that in mind, it seems that one dissatisfaction that owners of SURFTECH LONGBOARDS has, is their lack of mass…They are just too light…For everyday conditions that’s not always a good thing…Sure you can carry them easy, but once in the water will it carry you…That lightness translates into no momentum…Not always a good thing on a longboard… …Yesterday I surfed a break called the Groins…Since the waves were small but clean, I chose to ride my 10’4" hollow…I made this board heavy…traditional…substantial…In the water it has the ability to catch a ripple…It turns smooth…Lines up and glides…Carries well through the white water…Fun for the conditions… The tradeoff, it weights 32#…And carrying it from the jettyside parking lot over the top of the jetty, down the boulders, onto the slippery rocks and then into the surf, required some serious concentration…The trip out of the surf was similar…All the while with a full wetsuit on including boots and gloves… OK…What someone needs to invent, a light longboard that can be adjusted to whatever weight the conditions call for…Dale are you listening… http://hollowsurfboards.com
You people have way too much time on your hands…go find some surf.
Really,I can’t stand-up at all,I ride a boogue board on my little sisters slip and slide.Got the spins bad.Help!
hey cleanlines and loehr- its all good- mixing new and old technologies- heck i confess- i have experimented with epoxy/eps and loved a lot of it- i even re- member riding greg’s boards as a younger individgie- hey greg- the board you built for hartley- you know the banana rocker/wood fins/belly channels- yeah i picked that one up from bill perry at OS-FOLLY- rode the board to its final day- so yeah i am involved with alternative construction methods- but i suppose that i hear it so much, sometimes i just wnt to throw my hands up and scream at the top of my lungs- see, when i was younger, i really liked the ‘progressionary movement’, and as i have aged, i have relaized that some things need preservation-ie- the older styles/traditions within surfing. these emotional feelings of wanting a particular type of vector- understandably it can be a very personal choice.didn’t mean to step on any toes[smile] -shaper-out-
I don’t think that it is just the overseas factories that we need to worry about. But also the big five clothing companies opening stores that exploit the surf lifestyle. It will not be long before these stores start carrying boards and accessories, that the small shops supply to us now. I feel that boards like the surftech’s will be the choice, for all the reasons that Greg has mentioned before and now with the state of the economy that small shapers can not experiment with to many different materials and still make a very small profit(all mine goes back to the company anyway) but I think that we as the craftsmen need to stand up to the corprations and the surf media and start asking them to show us the support that is so rightful ours,especially the older and established craftsmen.They should pay us to make boards for the competitors of our lifestyle, make ads affordable for the small time guy, discounts on clothing and wetsuits. Just some suggestions becuase with out surfboards their would be no surfers and no lifestyle to mass market to the world. Stay Soul ,Rick http://www.ancientartsurfboards.com
Paul, Back in 1968 (oh my god, I’m really dating myself here) Mike Hynson was doing some end loading of boards at Wind an Sea. He had a cup glassed into the nose of his board and would put lead in when the waves were big and take it out when the waves were smaller. I’ve end loaded a number of boards and it works. More weight adds significant drive and momentum. On the same subject I shaped a board for a friend of mine (Dr. Don Wagner) that was a copy of a favorite of his that he got from Randy Rarick. His son had taken the board out when it was new and broken the nose off. When Don repaired it, he just filled everything with resin leaving the nose almost solid. When I made the copy I told him that the balance of weight was far forward and that he would have to add weight to the nose to make the copy ride true. Well he did and a few days later came into my shop raving about how the balance of weight was everything. We know it’s not but it does matter quite a bit. Later I related this same story to Nick Carroll and he told me a similar story that had happened to him. He took one of his favorite small wave boards in for a repair on the broken nose. When he got it back the guy had just filled it in like Don did. Nick was totally bummed. Then he rode it and it turned out to be his new favorite big wave board. More drive and momentum.
“OK…What someone needs to invent, a light longboard that can be adjusted to whatever weight the conditions call for…” Paul, that’s a funny comment coming from you, didn’t you post about a leak in one of your hollow boards?! :>) I can’t remember who did it (showing my age too I guess) but there were water-ballasted boards that supposedly worked quite well when set up right… not only weight-adjustable, but the ballast move fore-and-aft in the board by way of a tube. I recall they had their problems, too… Some of the tow in boards I’ve seen have substantial amounts of metal ballast, but not adjustable (at least, not that I’ve seen, but it seems possible enough).
That day that it took on water, I actually thought it was riding better, later in the session, when there was water INSIDE of it…I just thought I was in tune with the waves…I’m guessing that there might have been a gallon or so inside…It was a load to carry up the sand dune / bluff, back to the parking lot…UGGH… I do know that I like that board better now that it’s a round pin and not a square tail… Paul http://www.hollowsurfboards.com/surfboards.htm 
that’s just a thing of beauty. The tail looks like a Pipeliner, only prettier because of the wood…
Mike Hynson has had some recent models at the Beach House in Santa Barbara. A couple of the shorter single fins had water tubes glassed inside with enough water in them to create a weight shift when it sloshed around. I can imagine that when the board tilted down (as in taking off) the water would shift forward getting you in to the wave easier. I’m not sure what happens when you try an off the lip or cutback though… might get kind of strange.
cleanlines, Im very sorry to hear about your arthritis... but have hope, the world of prone riding is "much larger on the inside than it appears from the outside"... heres some food for thought: http://www.vagabondsurf.com/ http://www.rodndtube.com/paipo/MyPaipoBoards.html http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/Detailed/523.html http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/Detailed/518.html http://groups.msn.com/InflateAbleDreamSpeed/shoebox.msnw?Page=1 Dale
Cleanlines, My 8-8 “El Paipo Grande” (resource #479 and #480) has really fit the bill for a great belly board. It catches waves better than some of my other hulls that are between 9-0 and 9-6. It eats up small beach break and it flys at the points. I am not sure of your whereabouts, but if you are in So.Cal., you would be more that welcome to give it a go. Roger