WMD Compsand

Looks like compsand made easier. Nice work! Also any tips for cutting the deck skin to the correct shape before vacuuming it on?

First I cut the skin to the length and width of the what I wanted the finished wood piece to be. I then layed that on the blank and using the same outline template I used for the board, drew an outline, which was of course narrower than the board. Cut it out with sizzors. It was easy. There’s quite a lot of slop room on that rail so I didn’t have to be all that close. I just wanted to make sure I was over the stringers.

Also, both sides are covered and both are vaced on in the same pull. Makes this a true compsand.

Aloha Greg

this is exactly the process that Jarrod, BrianG and a few of us hobbiest (Including Greg Tate ) have been envisioning for a while now. Eliminating the need for the solid wood rails and just using the deck and bottom veneer skins as deck patches with out wrapping them over too much and stiffening up the core.

Do these Warvel blanks come already with the 1/16 or 1/8 perimeter stringers or are you adding those in afterwards and if you used PVC stringers would it make a difference in weight, flex or shaping?

We’ve been using XPS or corecel on the rails to reduce water penetration from rail dings but 5-6lb PU foam would seem to work for alot less…

Also will the the Warvel multi-density blank come in a greater variety of sizes instead of just the potato chip sizes?

It’d be nice just to buy a blank shape it and skin it with out having to worry about build out the stringers or the rails.

I wonder if it was I was the guy who pointed Greg Tate to certainlywood for bamboo veneers or if he’s the guy that passed it on to me it seems so long ago. be nice if you could get it in 20"-24" sheets for wider designs versus having to glueing two sheets of 12" veneer. Been getting mine from Frank’s Cane and Rush in California but certainlywood has been in my source library for a while…

We recently did something similar just putting some 1/42" bamboo and tigerwood veneer skins over the decks of a couple of GG shaped PU blanks using 2oz under and 4oz S over and just glass on the bottom using ResinX.

Is this the same multidesity blank thing that Huiee folks are doing in Australia?

Awesome thread mate, very helpful and not too technical. Great looking board. Is 5# PU foam stronger than regular pu foam??

The WMD’s do come complete with stringers. I used PVC stringers years ago in sailboards but the PVC doesn’t hold the rocker in the bag very well. I like wood better. carbon works too but shaping carbon stringers is something I did one time … never again … itch plus!! I built another one which I’ll post tomorrow for HI for myself which is poplar instead of bamboo. The bamboo I got from Certainly Wood was 17.25 wide and 8’3" long which is enough for shortboards and guns. My personal was 9’ and a bit wider than the 17 so I used the poplar instead. I’ll outline how I put the two pieces together so it would look cool with the photos. Using XPS for rails seems fine except the stuff doesn’t bend very easy. Gluing the perimeter is already a pain and the urethane goes easy. Also I like the perimeter weighting the 5# PU gives. I think it rides better. Were also chasing down some wider/longer bamboo. That’s available somewhere I’m sure.

Mr. Tate did help with this quite a lot. The WMD blank is something I designed 20 years ago in sailboards which we have made at our FL factory since and has been produced by Warvel for the open market for about two years. Putting it together with the veneers was a later idea and you guys here on sways gave me most of the ideas and information to put this together. I’m hoping with WMD’s we’ll be able to make compsand something everyone can ride. For HI I can’t imagine riding anything else.

Were working on more sizes for the WMD’s right now. We haven’t yet broadened that with other things being persued. But now that we’ve finished this part we’ll be looking to fill up the voids.

Regular PU surfboard foam is about 2.5 to 3. This is basically towin foam. Being this dense allows you to use less glass on the rail making the whole process easy. If we used a low density rail foam we’d have to add glass over that. This would complicate the process. Also 5# foam gives you a perimeter weighting which rides better … adds drive and hold.

Bernie, I think you put me onto the CertainlyWood folks. Thanks for that. We are best friends now. I’ll probably fly up for their Christmas party. ha.

Much as I love those guys, I just found BambooHardwoods.com who sells it in 4 by 8 sheets (1/40 inch). As you know, they just roll it up in about an 8 inch 48 inch tube and mail it out. With the bigger sheets you have less waste.

Full Disclosure: My job was to do the plumbing on the vac pump and stand around and say wow repeatedly. Greg L dreamed it up and did all the rocket launching. My big “doh?” was not using a rocker table. That really opens it up to a variety of boards including longboards. I just got hung up on putting the stringers in after bagging. With stringers in first, no rocker table needed. As GL has planned it, you can pump (suck?) these boards out with no penalty in build time and have a custom compsand with all the benefits.

And I am through with 1 pound foam. Too many issues for little to no weight savings. Get your weight savings elsewhere.

I’ll let Greg L talk about the Warvel blanks, but one thing to throw in is using your bamboo scraps laminated together into a larger sheet to cut stringers from. I’m using three layers of 1/40, still able to cut with scissors, and as a perimeter stringer saturated bamboo fiber works well. Sounds difficult, but after piecing balsa rails together it is a piece of cake. Warvel blanks are great, but when you can cut your own for $10, you gotta think about it for garage builds.

Check out the Warvel site. They sell sheet PU foam so you can layup your own rails on shapes other than the chip.

One last thing. I pestered him about bagging the exterior lam and got nowhere. He and Sam are very efficient laminators. and I know he is right, but the thought of compressing all those wet fibers tightly with a bag and absorbing the excess resin is just very appealing to me.

bernie the composite dual density blank i have designed& is in production

by empire foam is a more advanced total package.

but it seems that greg& i were going down the same road at the same time.

not to side track this thread great work greg

compsanders are geting even more&better ways less trouble

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Aloha GregT

you’ve been an inspiration for us for many years like when we saw that fish symboled stringered fish you did years ago…

Quote:

Much as I love those guys, I just found BambooHardwoods.com who sells it in 4 by 8 sheets (1/40 inch). As you know, they just roll it up in about an 8 inch 48 inch tube and mail it out. With the bigger sheets you have less waste.

Sounds just what I’m looking for… Shipping stuff this wide all the way to hawaii is always a problem

Quote:

I’ll let Greg L talk about the Warvel blanks, but one thing to throw in is using your bamboo scraps laminated together into a larger sheet to cut stringers from. I’m using three layers of 1/40, still able to cut with scissors, and as a perimeter stringer saturated bamboo fiber works well. Sounds difficult, but after piecing balsa rails together it is a piece of cake. Warvel blanks are great, but when you can cut your own for $10, you gotta think about it for garage builds.

I’ve been thinking about this for years as well. That is using single or multiple layers of the woven bamboo stuff but I can see how the flat stuff would work even better. A perimeter stringer you can cut out with scissors and just wrap around the edge of the inside core seems like a no brainer especially with the strength you’ll get from the bamboo fibers.

Quote:

Check out the Warvel site. They sell sheet PU foam so you can layup your own rails on shapes other than the chip.

I noticed them on Ken’s site a while back. We’ve been struggling for years as to what to use for rails and still get the snap and weight needed while somehow keeping it all simple. Gary Young was the guy who pointed us to XPS. But I can see where corecel or 5lb+ PU would work too… I can get 1" thick blue dow panels from Fiberglass Hawaii for under $20 and 2" thick 4’x8’ panels from lowes for $45. So i’ll have to check the warvel prices including the shipping costs which is the killer.

It’s all pretty crazy for being an amateur/hobbiest to get all serious like this but anything KIS related to compsands is my goal since being in the water testing and enjoying this stuff is much more important to me than slaving in a shop getting all dirty and exhausted. And with guys like Greg Griffin but and hour away to make me some real proven magic, if the process is not KIS-oriented what’s the purpose? Seeing you’re getting onto the whole Griffin thing like Hunter I think you’ll understand what I’m getting at.

I have high hopes with what’s been happening this year…

At this point with the prebuilt blanks I don’t see how this process is anymore difficult than prelamming one of Marlee’s graphic fleeces on a board before glassing it. And if shops are willing to go through that effort, putting on a lam skin of bamboo(or other fast growth grasses) would be no different… I guess the problem really was the blank in the first place… If these multi-density pre-stringers are machinable like the perimeter Markos which I believe is Greg and Huie’s goal then there’s no excuse to move on to the next level.

Hi Greg -

Looks as if you got Swaylocks back on track. Nice move. A lot of people seem excited over this.

FWIW, I tried a bunch of places trying to find long lengths of bamboo veneer for longboards without butt joints. The best I could come up with is “edging material” which comes in continuous 500’ rolls of material about 1" wide. I figured I could lay it out side-by-side in full lengths on a vacuum table and assemble pre-fab skins with it. I entertained the idea of alternating natural/carbonized strips for an interesting appearance. Also considered weaving it for a diagonal alternating light/dark weave. Maybe someone ambitious will beat me to it.

These two rolls (one natural and one carbonized) are .6mm X 7/8" X 500’ each and cost 65.00 per roll via Northwest Bamboo. Freight was 20.00. Total cost came to 150.00 - Ouch. It looks like all the bamboo veneer I’ve seen - flat but with visible nodes. They also have 1/8" bamboo faced ply, veneer, etc. but only in standard lengths.

Is that thin Warvel sheet foam what they are using to skin FW boards now?

nice work greg

i think if not using inserts perhaps the fcs fusion box is something worth trying

otherwise i would use inserts for the strongest and most durable plug install

also im a bit concerned about the 2 hour bag time

sis you use pu glue or epoxy

to me this would suggest polyurethane glue for skins which will delaminate

epoxy is the stuff to use

its easy to say that 1.5 or 2 pound foam doesnt need inserts

but if you use them the install is a lot stronger and more water resistant

so this is a good reason to use them

i wouldnt buy a board off builders that dont use them

i think the aussie blank looks good too

but for me i can construct my own for 35$nz and skin it for 130$

and they still come out under 5 pounds if i wish

the thing i like about huies/peters blank is that you can machine shape it

but thats the only reason i would probably use it other than it white

anyway, ill know soon enough

Hi Paul,

I made one board with 2 lb EPS prior to starting compsands. As per Greg’s instructions at the time, I didn’t use inserts and didn’t even drill the “tube” to the deck (FCS), but that was my mistake. 3 years later and no problems. Of course I don’t hit the reef at full speed, which, judging from the photos you’ve posted in the past, is a possibility where you surf.

Is the poplar board using the 1/16" veneer (I think I saw that at certainly wood? I was considering the 1/16", as I thought 1/40" was more cosmetic than structural (and I think the poplar is better looking than bamboo). Do you feel that 1/40" adds significant structural strength?

does it really need anymore structural strength?

you’ve got perimeter stringers AND HD foam at the rails…the thing is sound as is.

seems like the veneer is a good way to reinforce the deck/bottom from wear and tear.

1/40th would be great for applications with 2 ply bamboo run on a 90` bias.

South Bay Labs has a project in teh works that is similar but different…you should come by and see what Durbs and I have cooking in the lab.

I’ve installed over 10,000 fin boxes in 1.5 and 2.0 EPS and I could count the number of returns on one hand. In fact I remember only three. IMHO inserts are only for FCS plugs and have only marginal inprovements there. I was after FCS to make a box for YEARS. They wanted me to change our resin system, or develop a resin just for their plugs. We came up with a number of formulas and in the end I still was insistant to them that they needed a box. FINALLY the fusion box. This box (or any one of the others on the market) are fine in 1.5 of 2.0 without inserts.

Yes the perimeter stringers and HD foam are excellent as is. But that 1/40th veneer is surprisingly strong … way past what I thought. Greg T and I discussed this prior to making these boards and he’d already made a number of them and gave us a good feel as to what the stuff was all about. I was skeptical that a 1/40th would be adaquate and I did order some 1/16th poplar for decks. Seeing is believeing though and I’m no longer skeptical. The 1/40th is more than adaquate used as the sandwich material.

Thanks Greg. One of the boards built in FL was my board for HI which I’ll post later today. That wasn’t a WMD because they don’t make one in that size. So we cut the blank and glued at our shop using Warvel 1/2 inch sheet foam … 3 layers per rail. The stuff glues and bend s so easy it was a pleasure. That foam was also 7# which is even stronger than the 5 used in the WMD’s and since this is a board for the North Shore …

As I’ve stated a couple times I like high density rails. One of the critiques of EPS boards from some quarters is that they aren’t as solid off the bottom as PU. IMO this has always been a buoyancy issue and I realize that it isn’t an issue for everyone. But I personally like driving the rail deep and a higher density rail allows that. I also believe in perimeter weighting. Again I think it’s a real advantage and the WMD provides that.

Greg has a point about making your own blanks … the cost is significantly less and it is pretty easy. Right now the Warvel sheets are available for Segway in CA, Warvel direct and we have some at our shop in FL.

Oh my God, the light’s just gone on! Terrific way to go and there was me about to buy a new board, just have to give this a go. Thanks for bringing this thread back!