I have know for quite some time about large established board builders licensing their name to board builders in different regions of the country, and did not really think anything about it until recently. I mean sure it is the american way to establish a brand and then pimp the hell of it, but damn it just seems wrong. I saw a kid that I know at the beach with a brand new board with a prominent lable on it. The board cost him close to $500, (for a short board) and for our area (east coast) these prices are associated with boards that are shipped in from other areas. I was checking it out and noticed that it was made about 30 miles from where we were at. The kid had no idea, he thought that since it had that label on it, it was made somewhere far away by a shaping guru. Hence the big price tag. I guess it is buyer beware, but it still does not make it right. As a consumer if I were to pay extra for a big name board I want to know that board to be from the area, and made by the craftsmen that I have heard and read so much about. Not by a factory down the road from me that if I bought their lable would cost much less. I’m just curious what people who are in the industry think about this practice? Jim “thegenius”?
Bro…If you check the archive (I’m sure my letter is back in there, by now)…you will be further aggravated to learn that there are MANY surfboards - out there- that are supposedly made by a certain prominent shaper, AND SIGNED by the “alleged” shaper…except that those boards may not have even been TOUCHED by that shaper …EXCEPT to sign his name (most work done by a ghost shaper, and possibly only given a slight refinement, here and there, to claim the work as his own). To me when a person signs his board, he is -at least- implying that he has had a major hand in it’s production. To me, this is like counterfitting. I try to take pride in my own (good) work(s), and I would not feel too good about myself if I attempted to pawn off a board as mine if somebody else had actually “made” it. Liscencing your board company’s name, and having a stable of hot shapers under your label is one thing…to imply that a board was “made” by you, and signed by you (when it was NOT)- is pure deception.
Bro…If you check the archive (I’m sure my letter is back in there, by > now)…you will be further aggravated to learn that there are MANY > surfboards - out there- that are supposedly made by a certain prominent > shaper, AND SIGNED by the “alleged” shaper…except that those > boards may not have even been TOUCHED by that shaper …EXCEPT to sign his > name (most work done by a ghost shaper, and possibly only given a slight > refinement, here and there, to claim the work as his own). To me when a > person signs his board, he is -at least- implying that he has had a major > hand in it’s production. To me, this is like counterfitting. I try to take > pride in my own (good) work(s), and I would not feel too good about myself > if I attempted to pawn off a board as mine if somebody else had actually > “made” it. Liscencing your board company’s name, and having a > stable of hot shapers under your label is one thing…to imply that a > board was “made” by you, and signed by you (when it was NOT)- is > pure deception. The ghost shaping thing does not bother me as much, because at least it is going through the label’s production facility, even if the glassing is off site. At least the standard of production is there. I think that it is worse to promote your product as meeting certain factory standards, when in fact the board is not even being made in the same state, let alone the meeting the those same standards.
The ghost shaping thing does not bother me as much, because at least it is > going through the label’s production facility, even if the glassing is off > site. At least the standard of production is there. I think that it is > worse to promote your product as meeting certain factory standards, when > in fact the board is not even being made in the same state, let alone the > meeting the those same standards. I know of a shaper who “computer shapes” the majority of his boards. He has a guy several thousands of miles away with the same computer and the same programs who makes boards with his name on them. I have done some work for this shaper and am very familiar with his shapes and the ones that the guy is finishing for him are quality. I know it is kindof a fake out, but his R&D has gone into the programs. With the computer doing the rough cuts there is consistency. With ghost shapers the chances of loosing consistency is higher. Most big name shapers aren’t touching their boards. Anyone in Hawaii ever visited laminations Hawaii. Tons of boards are shaped and signed for guys who may never even see the board they shaped. Has anyone seen those signiture laminates. The shaper just signs a bunch of laminates and they are used as the “signiture”. I am not complaining if some quality control is in place and the product is good I think that is the bottom line. I drive an American car that has a Japanese engine that runs great.
I know of a shaper who “computer shapes” the majority of his > boards. He has a guy several thousands of miles away with the same > computer and the same programs who makes boards with his name on them. I > have done some work for this shaper and am very familiar with his shapes > and the ones that the guy is finishing for him are quality. I know it is > kindof a fake out, but his R&D has gone into the programs. With the > computer doing the rough cuts there is consistency. With ghost shapers the > chances of loosing consistency is higher. Most big name shapers aren’t > touching their boards. Anyone in Hawaii ever visited laminations Hawaii. > Tons of boards are shaped and signed for guys who may never even see the > board they shaped. Has anyone seen those signiture laminates. The shaper > just signs a bunch of laminates and they are used as the > “signiture”. I am not complaining if some quality control is in > place and the product is good I think that is the bottom line. I drive an > American car that has a Japanese engine that runs great. The quality is the key. I live on the east coast and shops around me are selling boards that have prominent labels, which are well known and have a certain perception of quality associated with them, and are up to $200 dollars more a board compared to a local shape when in fact they are being made at the same place, locally. My hang up they are getting west coast prices for something made locally. Not that west coast boards are higher or lesser in quality than east coast (I am not even going there), it is perception of the customer that he or she is getting something not available locally.
Bro…If you check the archive (I’m sure my letter is back in there, by > now)…you will be further aggravated to learn that there are MANY > surfboards - out there- that are supposedly made by a certain prominent > shaper, AND SIGNED by the “alleged” shaper…except that those > boards may not have even been TOUCHED by that shaper …EXCEPT to sign his > name (most work done by a ghost shaper, and possibly only given a slight > refinement, here and there, to claim the work as his own). To me when a > person signs his board, he is -at least- implying that he has had a major > hand in it’s production. To me, this is like counterfitting. I try to take > pride in my own (good) work(s), and I would not feel too good about myself > if I attempted to pawn off a board as mine if somebody else had actually > “made” it. Liscencing your board company’s name, and having a > stable of hot shapers under your label is one thing…to imply that a > board was “made” by you, and signed by you (when it was NOT)- is > pure deception. Ambitious manufacturers have always been enticed by the murky waters of that great dicotomous gulf existing between one-offs and mass-produced designs. Speaking of deception, it
s always been interesting (and amusing) to observe just how far various surfboard advertisers will frequently go to maintain their thin public perception of being "custom"... in fact, the traditional meanings of words such as "made", "designed" and "shaped" have not only been stretched, but literally re-defined through the semantic magic of implication, or just avoided altogether. Tom V. is so right, as this simple fact still remains: you can
t possibly respect your customers very much if the basic truth about who did (or didn`t) fabricate their surfboards means a drop in corporate sales.
The quality is the key. I live on the east coast and shops around me are > selling boards that have prominent labels, which are well known and have a > certain perception of quality associated with them, and are up to $200 > dollars more a board compared to a local shape when in fact they are being > made at the same place, locally. My hang up they are getting west coast > prices for something made locally. Not that west coast boards are higher > or lesser in quality than east coast (I am not even going there), it is > perception of the customer that he or she is getting something not > available locally. But the customer IS getting something that is not available locally. The Designs. If somebody is willing to pay for the big name boards, it’s mostly because he/she believes that the big name shaper has, through experience, team rider testing, natural talent, etc, Better designs than the locals. The large labels also carry the assurance that they only license the highest quality shops to do their work. When I drive my car I do not worry that the guy who designed it actually built it, nor do I expect the person who designed my clothes to actually sew them, etc. I think we’re coming closer and closer to seperating the design of surfboards (through all the technology advances) from the physical labor required to produce them. The design is the thing, and this is where the wise shaper will focus his energies on. Whether the big name guy’s designs are better than the local guy’s is another question, but that’s something for the Marketing dept. to figure out [wink] http://www.kklmachine.com
It is a licensing/franchising situation. When you are at home you always no the best place for grinds at the best price. But, when you hit the road to some place you have never been and you need a place for a quick bite to eat you go to a familiar name. While it may not be the best place in town you know what to expect. For the novice or the uninformed that wants a board that will work they may feel some sense of security going with the name brand. Because while they might just be getting a cookie cutter punch out mass produced plan wrap board it will at least meet the minimum standards that the label demands of its licensee. A little knowledge goes a long ways in not spending to much for quality.
I have know for quite some time about large established board builders > licensing their name to board builders in different regions of the > country, and did not really think anything about it until recently. I mean > sure it is the american way to establish a brand and then pimp the hell of > it, but damn it just seems wrong.>>> I saw a kid that I know at the beach with a brand new board with a > prominent lable on it. The board cost him close to $500, (for a short > board) and for our area (east coast) these prices are associated with > boards that are shipped in from other areas. I was checking it out and > noticed that it was made about 30 miles from where we were at. The kid had > no idea, he thought that since it had that label on it, it was made > somewhere far away by a shaping guru. Hence the big price tag. I guess it > is buyer beware, but it still does not make it right. Well Mike D., I’m not sure of what label that you are refering to, but Donald and Velzy both have a shaper in Fla., that finishes blanks done on the machine and designed and shaped by the MASTERS. It isn’t any different than the boards done here on the West coast, when I was helping out Donald, he would sign all of his boards, so would Linden and all of the Velzy’s that I do bear his signature. The boards are the original shapers designs, they are finished by very competent shapers and get good glass jobs. No one Rusty, Al or any other top dog could possibly do the numbers that are demanded of them. Just a clue, many of the finish shapers do a BETTER job than the PRO’S. Jim “doing it right”>>> As a consumer if I were to pay extra for a big name board I want to know > that board to be from the area, and made by the craftsmen that I have > heard and read so much about. Not by a factory down the road from me that > if I bought their lable would cost much less.>>> I’m just curious what people who are in the industry think about this > practice? Jim “thegenius”? http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
Well Mike D., I’m not sure of what label that you are refering to, but > Donald and Velzy both have a shaper in Fla., that finishes blanks done on > the machine and designed and shaped by the MASTERS. It isn’t any different > than the boards done here on the West coast, when I was helping out > Donald, he would sign all of his boards, so would Linden and all of the > Velzy’s that I do bear his signature. The boards are the original shapers > designs, they are finished by very competent shapers and get good glass > jobs. No one Rusty, Al or any other top dog could possibly do the numbers > that are demanded of them. Just a clue, many of the finish shapers do a > BETTER job than the PRO’S. Jim “doing it right” the glass jobs on donalds boards isn’t close to the kind of quality you get out of his shop in oceanside. i’ve visited his shop, and i have one done in florida and it just isn’t the same finished product.
I’m different i guess, making my own boards. I guess riding a backyard board at a cost of approx. $195.(for 7’0") I’sn’t as glamorous as having that “R.” on the top (at a cost of approx. $500.) even though they are glassed by the same factory. You see I’m not gonna subsidize the team expenses and overheads of big name shapers with massive expenses. Most average working shapers can and will do a shape out of their facility(custom) with their personal logo’s for way less, you just need to seek them out. Cash talks, and the slow season is starting soon. There’s many new shapers every year, why would anyone spend $500. on a sanded 4ozE machined/ghostshaped 6’2" just to look cool?.. shape on backyard shapers.
Mike D., what was it about the glassing that was done at R&D on your Donald that you felt was less than par for for the money? Lamination, sanding, color, gloss, polish? http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
I don’t know…my buddy has an east coast Takayama that is absolutely beautiful. It’s a 9.0 pintail, light blue tint with rail wrap, and the glasswork is flawless. Maybe he was just lucky, but I’ve never noticed any problems with any of the boards RC’s glassed.
Mike D., what was it about the glassing that was done at R&D on your > Donald that you felt was less than par for for the money? Lamination, > sanding, color, gloss, polish? well i asked for double 8 oz volan all over with a 6 oz knee patch. don’t get me wrong the color is the most striking combination i have seen, its just that if there is double 8 on there you wouldn’t know it by feel or sight. i suspect although having paid a premium for heavy glass i got standard glass that was over sanded to boot. the board rides excellent but i was expecting something with some weight not just an average light longboard.
Mike D., what was it about the glassing that was done at R&D on your > Donald that you felt was less than par for for the money? Lamination, > sanding, color, gloss, polish? Jim, the post with the name of Mike was not Mike d. I have never had a tak, just done some ding repair on some, and I was impressed (don’t know where they came from). I just know that west coast and hawaiian labels are being done in fl, and I just don’t think it is the same, even if they are using templates from these large companies. I can see what you said about machine shapes, specs can easily be emailed or whatever, where ever you want. But I don’t think this is the case. Don’t get me wrong, the boards seem to be made very well. After doing my own for awhile I can totally appreciate the craftsmenship that goes into those, or any other board out there. I am just not sure that that a local board is worth 150 to $200 more because of the label on it.
No one doubts the accuracy of a robot-shaped board. There is something called “Industrial Design”…which we are ALL a part of when we make adjustments and design changes to our work - at a board’s inception/“conception”…Yes, quality IS the bottom line…and a lot of yahoos are so sold on their own personal designs that they find it necessary to clone and proliferate their “masterworks” for all the younguns to spend thier hard earned cash on. Hey…how much “labor” went into that robot-shaped board?!..Seems to me that when you MASS PRODUCE something, the price ought to go DOWN, no? Less labor intensive, right? I don’t knock using a machine…what I object to is the blatant self-serving root from which this mentality emanates. Which one of you out there owns a robot? …How much did it COST you?..Who financed you for the bread to get your operation up and running? Yeah, the robot product can sure be good…What happens when boards snap or when there is a flaw that goes undetected - who picks up the tab? I’ve heard a lot of stories, lately, about boards breaking and the well known manufacturers - basically - give you the, “well, boards do break under certain situations” rap…and let some poor kid work another year and a half to recoup the cash to get a new board…the manufacturer grinning his way to the next exotic surf trip he’s got planned. Instead of board builders, we now have “fashion designers” who put out this season’s flavor. All power to those who make a good product, Whether it is fully hand made or robot derived…but there is a grey area of culpability that goes by the wayside. If you have the balls to put your “signature” on your board, even if your ass didn’t MAKE the board…in this country, your signature makes you liable. In some measure the board is supposed to be YOU. You owe your clients something. You are not doing them a favor, they are doing YOU a favor. There were people who went before you in surfboard design, and there will be people after you. Respect the lineage of where you learned your craft. This is NOT ONLY about making money, and people who view surfing as a way to make cash -ONLY- are missing the point; they do not deserve this gift of life we call surfing !!! Aloha, T.
No one doubts the accuracy of a robot-shaped board. There is something > called “Industrial Design”…which we are ALL a part of when we > make adjustments and design changes to our work - at a board’s > inception/“conception”…Yes, quality IS the bottom line…and a > lot of yahoos are so sold on their own personal designs that they find it > necessary to clone and proliferate their “masterworks” for all > the younguns to spend thier hard earned cash on. Hey…how much > “labor” went into that robot-shaped board?!..Seems to me that > when you MASS PRODUCE something, the price ought to go DOWN, no? Less > labor intensive, right? I don’t knock using a machine…what I object to > is the blatant self-serving root from which this mentality emanates. Which > one of you out there owns a robot? …How much did it COST you?..Who > financed you for the bread to get your operation up and running? Yeah, the > robot product can sure be good…What happens when boards snap or when > there is a flaw that goes undetected - who picks up the tab? I’ve heard a > lot of stories, lately, about boards breaking and the well known > manufacturers - basically - give you the, “well, boards do break > under certain situations” rap…and let some poor kid work another > year and a half to recoup the cash to get a new board…the manufacturer > grinning his way to the next exotic surf trip he’s got planned. Instead of > board builders, we now have “fashion designers” who put out this > season’s flavor. All power to those who make a good product, Whether it is > fully hand made or robot derived…but there is a grey area of culpability > that goes by the wayside. If you have the balls to put your > “signature” on your board, even if your ass didn’t MAKE the > board…in this country, your signature makes you liable. In some measure > the board is supposed to be YOU. You owe your clients something. You are > not doing them a favor, they are doing YOU a favor. There were people who > went before you in surfboard design, and there will be people after you. > Respect the lineage of where you learned your craft. This is NOT ONLY > about making money, and people who view surfing as a way to make cash > -ONLY- are missing the point; they do not deserve this gift of life we > call surfing !!! Aloha, T. Tom, it is about making money. What point is there to work 10-12 hours a day? Create a product that others are unable to do. I have seen comments on Swaylock’s that shaping is not “Rocket Science”, I disagree. There are shapers, skinning blanks and turning rails and there are masters of the craft, turning out precision, functionable water rockets and it is science. I, personally know at least a dozen shapers who had to smuggle, deal, traffic in illicet materials because there was so little money to be made as a legitimate shaper that this was what it took. As for the machine and boards off of it being less money, the cost of cutting is nearly the same as a hand shape, add on the cost of finishing and we have arrived at a cost minimally 35$ more than a hand shape. The chance of hand shaping every board accurately the same as what you hand in mind is ludicress. In 1969 boards were selling for 90$, a VW Bug was 1700$. The bug today is 20,000$, a surfboard ranges fron 250$ to 1000$. Somewhere the surfboard got left behind while a cheeseburger didn’t. I’ve got a lot of kids, if I didn’t get a lot of my biz’ off the machine I would starve, no they would starve, or better yet I could start dealing. I’m only 55, what would a few years be out of my life at this point. I am an artist and craftsman, but you can only eat so much art. Hey I would love to build boards for ultra cheapo so the “masses” could afford them, but I still couldn’t build any more than I already do. Clark doesn’t offer any great discount for volume as neither do the glass shops. There are so many things that I can’t afford, I do not get them either. So for the young guns who shell out hard earned cash for that new board, we all shell out hard earned cash for something. It is a bitter pill http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
Tom, it is about making money. What point is there to work 10-12 hours a > day? Create a product that others are unable to do. I have seen comments > on Swaylock’s that shaping is not “Rocket Science”, I disagree. > There are shapers, skinning blanks and turning rails and there are masters > of the craft, turning out precision, functionable water rockets and it is > science. I, personally know at least a dozen shapers who had to smuggle, > deal, traffic in illicet materials because there was so little money to be > made as a legitimate shaper that this was what it took.>>> As for the machine and boards off of it being less money, the cost of > cutting is nearly the same as a hand shape, add on the cost of finishing > and we have arrived at a cost minimally 35$ more than a hand shape. The > chance of hand shaping every board accurately the same as what you hand in > mind is ludicress.>>> In 1969 boards were selling for 90$, a VW Bug was 1700$. The bug today is > 20,000$, a surfboard ranges fron 250$ to 1000$. Somewhere the surfboard > got left behind while a cheeseburger didn’t.>>> I’ve got a lot of kids, if I didn’t get a lot of my biz’ off the machine I > would starve, no they would starve, or better yet I could start dealing. > I’m only 55, what would a few years be out of my life at this point.>>> I am an artist and craftsman, but you can only eat so much art. Hey I > would love to build boards for ultra cheapo so the “masses” > could afford them, but I still couldn’t build any more than I already do. > Clark doesn’t offer any great discount for volume as neither do the glass > shops. There are so many things that I can’t afford, I do not get them > either. So for the young guns who shell out hard earned cash for that new > board, we all shell out hard earned cash for something. It is a bitter > pill Jim, You have illustrated the classic plight of artists and craftsmen everywhere and the base, materialistic nature of our culture… yet, throughout history it has most always been this way. The often tortured lives (consider the moral and ethical incongruity of buying and selling dope to support and involve one
s family and legitimate business) of many artisians are radically different in nature than the average person
s, governed by decisions relating to their higher degree of sensitivity, skill and fervent, focused ideals and passion for their chosen endeavors. Rarely, are they ever free to pursue these things without other concerns. For most, long hours have always been the norm, the endless cycle of questioning, insight, effort, accident, success and failure leading to the required knowledge and skills, intuitively recognizing that this is simply the price of the journey. They live out the relentless struggle of limited output and income vs. lifes increasing complexity of expense and responsibility, yet consistently seek the ideals of inspiration, passion and faith, their calling over and above all else. If the acquisition of money is truly one
s primary concern, life is full of choices, but getting rich shaping surfboards is not likely to be one of them. Sell drugs, sell real estate, sell cars, sell anything that someone else has made… become a distributor… get a degree in business management… whatever works. That said, I think we should, more than ever, try to seek out and support those among us who still follow the road less traveled.
I have know for quite some time about large established board builders > licensing their name to board builders in different regions of the > country, and did not really think anything about it until recently. I mean > sure it is the american way to establish a brand and then pimp the hell of > it, but damn it just seems wrong.>>> I saw a kid that I know at the beach with a brand new board with a > prominent lable on it. The board cost him close to $500, (for a short > board) and for our area (east coast) these prices are associated with > boards that are shipped in from other areas. I was checking it out and > noticed that it was made about 30 miles from where we were at. The kid had > no idea, he thought that since it had that label on it, it was made > somewhere far away by a shaping guru. Hence the big price tag. I guess it > is buyer beware, but it still does not make it right.>>> As a consumer if I were to pay extra for a big name board I want to know > that board to be from the area, and made by the craftsmen that I have > heard and read so much about. Not by a factory down the road from me that > if I bought their lable would cost much less.>>> I’m just curious what people who are in the industry think about this > practice? Jim “thegenius”? I think that a distinction should be made whether the board was designed by (a computer shaped blank finished by someone else), or shaped by (the blank was either hand or computer shaped by the person who signed the shape) whoever signed the board. So if it says designed by so and so, the customer will know that the design is of that shaper but finished off by a someone else. And if the blank is signed, that person should have had a 100% involvement in the shape whether it was roughed out by hand or machine. A person’s signature should mean something.