if anyone wants me
ill be in PM
Question,
If I have foam then a layer of s glass, and a layer of kevlar and a layer of E glass with epoxy resin throughout, then vacuum bag the whole thing is it a “compsand board” even with no wood???
If you start reading the thread from the beginning again many things become clear…
Silly’s first post to “the guy wanting some info” accurately provides him with info on one of the key properties of the construction, a pivotal property at that.
The whole point was to direct him to what is accepted as a more beneficial combination of materials.
I pretty sure he’s aware that of the distinction between a veneer and a sandwich core now.
Are you? I’d hope so.
Then there was a post challenging the definition, and a discussion entered into.
The point things took a wrong turn was when you showed up… look in the mirror man.
If you wish to use Kevlar as a sandwich core you’re welcome to, please report back on your findings!
It could be valid, I havn’t tried it, but you may have, whilst I was in diapers. Which coincidentally could make a sandwich core themselves.
The argument that has been made many times before, and more convincingly, is whether 3 layers of glass constitute a sandwich panel. Have a look in the archives, you’ll read a whole host of opinions.
My personal stance on that one, is that is the point where normal glass jobs and sandwich construction converge.
Once again, by disecting the word composite you are really missing the point… it’s the sandwich bit that matters, and is being refered to throughout this thread!
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Foam, hand laid fiberglass and resin= composite construction by the pure definition of the word. Look it up.
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Can it truly be a “composite” per the strict confused definition you all use if the last layer is staged and layed up by hand.
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Last I checked with the dictionary regarding the word “composite”, any surfboard hand layed, veneered or the holy grail of composite sandwich are all composite boards technically speaking.
What are you trying to say man?
Do you mean composites only can or can’t be layed up by hand?
Try and argue that one either way and you’ll be embarassed…
Heat and pressure can be applied to produce differing composites, but it’s news to me that if you not using them then your not building composites?
What do you think you’re building then?
Of even more entertainment value, what do you think we are builiding?
I can’t wait to hear what you come up with it’s sure to be a good read.
Next you’ll be asking for all the inside techniques, the secrets to sandwich construction…
Then you’d really be a troll.
Wish I could help, but my “tight hold on the facts” is “2 steps backwards from 20 years ago”
Kit
I don’t know for sure how they do it but Surftech describes the technology on their wood grain boards thusly…
As the Techlite blanks are blown, they are checked for quality, then taken to the shaping bay and hand tuned using the templates created from the master. This is done in very much the same way as it has been done by the understudies of Master designers and shapers for decades. Careful attention is paid to every detail and the blank is accurately measured using a dizzying array of templates and jigs.
The blanks is then glassed with epoxy, in a proprietary process and begins to take shape as a recognizable surfboard. The board is faired out by hand, checked for accuracy then prepared for the wood veneer process.
The wood veneer is molded to the surfboard using high pressure and epoxy, to ensure that the wood is bonded perfectly to the board. It is really an amazing (top secret) process as the wood is applied and the board is prepped for the next step where it is again glassed.
The final glassing is done by hand in the traditional custom style. It is then sanded by hand, glossed and polished traditionally until finally and painstakingly, a beautiful work of art is created!
From the info provided, I would conclude that their skins are indeed a sandwich composite. I.E. glass under, veneer, glass over.
Other internet sources reveal that the thicker the core of the sandwich (inner and outer laminates being equal), the stiffer (and stronger?) the total sandwich.
http://oneoceankayaks.com/Sandcore.htm
I would guess that a balsa sheet core of say 1/8" will be more substantial than a veneer of 1/32" but can’t both be used as cores in the strictest sense?
Please, somebody set me straight if I am missing something. I know better than to believe everything I read on the internet but I hope I am not too far off.
Hi Adios,
I made several boards using 0.5mm thick veneer and it works well. If you put glass under and over it is much more than cosmetic - very strong in fact. It works particularly well on bottoms where you might want it to conform to contours. I mostly used it because I got it for free and was surprised how much strength it added. I usually use 2mm thick Paulownia for skins and veneer is not quite as bullet proof as that but still pretty tough. I don’t use pu/pe but don’t see why you couldn’t use it on that, but the longer working time with epoxy makes for less stress.
As someone previously mentioned you won’t be sorry if you get a vacuum set up. An old fridge compressor works fine - have gotten several from the dump. I think you will find the vacuuming the easiest part of the whole thing.
I used Paulownia wood for the rails and didn’t attempt to bend the vereer around them.
What I do is: shape the blank, vacuum on the bottom, trim back the rails 8mm, put on a 4mm thick piece of wood on the rails, plane back flush, vacuum on the deck, put another 4mm piece of wood on the rail, re-shape the rail, glass.
Not by a long shot the only way - but a way that works OK for me. PM me if I can help. Have a go at it.
Jon
Check out board lady’s anatomy of an epoxy board and check out the cross section of the surftech woody. I love the accurate description she gives it.
“structural veneer”. Repairs I have done and seen done on surftech woodies are repaired knowing there is not an outer fiberglass covering but to repair them yoiu place a patch. Also the almost seamless wrapping with the wood is second to none. Maybe the new woody surftechs are made differently now.
I think the board lady site is one of the better how to sites for detailed composite surfboard understanding and repair.
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Surftech wood veneer board: EPS foam core, inner glass, structural wood veneer.
Quote from The Board Lady -
I love it when we all come to agreement!
Especially when a things have been taken a bit far over simple terminology!
But, there you have it the board lady has spoken.
According to her, no outer glass, just inner glass, therefore refered to as a veneer.
Outer and inner glass and you’ve got a sandwich… But once again, people can call it what they will, they just have to put up with people correcting them, trying to make sure they have working knowledge.
Sweet.
Kit
The sandwich meat is the foam core. Some like the outside of the bun whole wheat, some like it rye, either way it’s a sandwich construction.(sandcomp or whatever it is called that won’t get you in trouble.)
structural veneer it is.
the previous comments regarding veneer seem even more silly now.
Wow!!! I really opened up a can of worms here! Sway’s is great. All my questions were answered and along with tons that I didn’t. Of course, the only problems with answers is that they lead directly to more questions. All you guys are way beyond me on this stuff but I enjoy learning every bit that I can, slippery definitions and all. I’ll post pics of my first attempt although it may be a little while yet. Btw, the pic of the cherry inlay was fantastic. Got anymore?
adios
I honestly would call something a veneer board if veneer was used in the construction at all. I mean a hollow wood board is glassed inside and out and still called a hollow wood board right? Speaking of veneer though, love working with the stuff on skateboards, and even with flat layups vaccum is much easier, I put together a simple system with a pump I got on ebay for $40 that works great, pulls about 30" which is great for the skates, probably would crush foam core. For our UAVs we use 10".
Hmmm… I wonder what Surftech means when they say they follow the wood attachment with another glassing process in the “traditional custom style”???
I personally think there is a distinction between fiberglass cloth (glass)and resin. I don’t know for sure what they do although it sounds like a fiberglass outer layer?
I also tend to believe Eva Hollman and her real world experience over Surftech’s sales pitch.
I’ve done repairs on Tuflite branded boards (Santa Cruz) and found that they sand them so vigorously in places, there was little except primer and paint over the high density foam skin core… if there was any cloth, it was pretty damn thin.
Interestingly, the Surftechs displayed on Boardlady website appear to have plenty of vulnerabilities.
I picked up the new Surfer mag today just to read the article. Haven’t got to it yet.
FWIW, here is the key phrase used by Surftech on their website (again)…
It is really an amazing (top secret) process as the wood is applied and the board is prepped for the next step where it is again glassed.
The final glassing is done by hand in the traditional custom style. It is then sanded by hand, glossed and polished traditionally until finally and painstakingly, a beautiful work of art is created!
Great Adios!
Just ask and i’ll see if I know the answer, and if I don’t then i’ll learn something too!
So which did you decide to go for, a sandwich style, or a non sandwich style?
The decision between those two dictates a whole lot of factors that will follow from there.
For example, with a sandwich, the type of wood you use dictates the thickness it will need to be, when combined with glass/resin that could be different weights on the inside or outside of the wood, and saturated at a certain glass:resin ratio, combined with the density of your foam core, the shape of the board, the thickness of your perimeter stringers, the way you hold your tounge whilst applying resin… and so on and so on…
Basically the whole thing is an enormous balancing act, certain combinations of which may produce a magic board!
I havn’t found “the” magic solution, or even “a” magic solution, as i’m sure there are many!
BUT, before you get discouraged by the incredible options that have just opened up for you, I have found that it’s actually quite easy to come out with a finished product that is lighter and stronger than any board you’ve owned before, looks so crazy that people stop you in the carpark and marvel, and will probably surf just fine!
Thats where i’m at now, making boards that ride easily as well as my previous one i’ve made from pu/pe, but with all the other advantages!
I’m not gunna pretend my boards go as well as a pro board from the shop down the road!
Only problem is I keep experimenting to see if i can break them… jumping up and down on them, letting my mates squeeze them as hard as they can… dropping them from ever increasing heights…
No i’m not one of those kids who just likes smashing stuff, but I do love loud noises!
Kit
KKSurf, at first I’ll just try a simple inlay, like a decorative deck patch. If that goes well, then I’ll explore the more intense stuff. I have only worked with pu/pe so far but am open to epoxy. It’d be another first for me. How thin/light can you make the composite boards?
I dissected a Surftech Woody and the only glass on the out side of the
wood was on the nose and tail block.It had a 6oz+4oz under the wood and very heavy EPS foam.The board was a Yater egg and it was three years old when it broke.
Wood pic(balsa&walnut)
Veneer on PU with GG
(Balsa&mahogany)
Ian
I was holding off weighing in, but adios asked a good question - just how far can you go. I’ve been talking with cj3 about going for a 9 footer at around the 8 lb range and somewhere around 1.75 inches thick. The thing is, theres a lot more to it than slapping together skins and saying all is good. I’ve gone as light as 9.5 lbs for a 9 footer, but they weren’t up to the task. The key is in getting the skins right - its why Silly and KKSurf are stressing the difference between veneer and structural skin. Until you understand the difference the Best you can hope for is to make a surftech (which by the way, you’d be da#W@# proud of if you could equal). In my mind a great board doesn’t make a great surfer greater, but rather an averager surfer stand out.