But if it was as simple as that, would you expect him to give out the recipe?
Xylene is a solvent commonly used on wax/paraffin. It has been used for decades to remove paraffin from microscope slides. It could certainly be used as a carrier for relatively small quantities of paraffin. Furthermore, it is evident that xylene can be mixed with epoxy.
The relevant issue is whether the addition of approximately 0.35 to 0.5 percent paraffin, by weight, to the epoxy mix improves sanding properties when the epoxy has sufficiently hardened.
Whether the xylene-paraffin solution is the precise formulation of Additive F is equivocation.
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I shake the can, pour out a small amount into the lid and eyeball what I want in to the batch, if it is solidified in the can, it is too cold, put it in a pot of hot water. I watched Kevin at Channin use styrene based surfing agent in epoxy
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Hello everyone....I'm going with Jim...I confess...a small amount poured into the cap....bingo!
Where did I get that??? well.....Clark foam closed and there was a seiminar...and the guys mixing the epoxy were using PPG cups.....and the 2:1 mix is about 15 ounces...and they just used a cap full of AddF for a clear short board........
....And that was 7 years ago.....here's some photos to help explain what's going on. Keep in mind that AddF is not required and several top notch glassers refuse to use the product.
When Stingray says crust at the top he means on the outside of the can. No Cottage Cheese inside the can. When Stingray says "strain the F"....he uses a strainer from the local market.
Oh yeah...... how much liquid does the cap hold? ....that's funny because the quart can has a bigger cap than the pint can.....
I've learned alot in seven years......there's a good chance the white haze you blame on AddF is froth not F........
Fun stuff............Ray....
I love Swaylock's.com.....just got a pm...
I use 100% clear addF......and then I strain it....I shake it really good first. My work shop will be at least 65* F.....most likely 70*........or warmer. Just want to take out the chuncks......not the good stuff.
Hi Ray -
I gotta admit those crusty solids around the cap look a lot like the crusty solids around the cap on my surfacing agent for polyester resin - used to create 'sanding' resin out of 'laminating' resin.
Epoxy is different though... unlike polyester laminating, which remains somewhat tacky for quite awhile and really tends to gum up sandpaper, properly proportioned and mixed epoxy cures hard and sandable without any additive.... 'fill' coat is exactly the same as 'laminating' coat if additive F is not added and both cure to a hard finish.
I seem to remember Greg Loehr stating that they use additive F even in their laminations. Maybe not a good idea for subsequent layers if it is xylene and wax? Wax would create bonding issues and some of us have had enough trouble with those already.
So.... what if those chunks ARE the good stuff? I'd think Greg Loehr would have figured out the right proportions of solvent to solids in his additive F? Remove too many of those chunks and you are getting closer to straight xylene which is a solvent.
I have no idea how to make AddF ............ 2 cc F for 15 ounces total resin (hardener + resin) at 70 degrees F, strained with the Stainless Steel strainer I bought at the local market. It works...I've proved it.....
Add F is not required for a quality galss job.....many have proved that.
I'm getting ready to start another Epoxy color thread....ha hha ha hah.....I've been busy!
Stingray is a big fan of addF.....Proper Shop temp and proper mix are much more important..
Sure wish JohnM lived closer to my house....It would be fun to do some testing...
In think John is right,
Greg explained that addF was firstly made for avoid epoxy blush. They lam with it so they can cover cured epoxy without carrefully prep, then they use it in finish coat because blush clog sandpaper. But last evolution of epoxy doesn’t blush anymore in cool dry climat so they sand very easily when they are well cure, with the good tool (high orbital sanders). So for me the best thing for easy sand epoxy is an hotbox. + your board will be tough.
Sorry for my frenglish
I dunno, maybe not.
But, I’m pretty sure he’s not making his millions off of F.
Besides, he’s never lied to me before AND, he’s proven to be pretty forthcoming with a lot of info that he doesn’t HAVE to share.
Seems to me to be one of the good guys.
so whos using F in the lam and all other coats ?
an whos using in just there sanding coats ?
i just found out about cleaning the blush of between coats ? what about cleaning with soap and water the last coat before you sand ? does that aid sanding ?
Xylene is hydrophobic, as such, it prevents blush as it volatilizes while the resin kicks. My understanding is that If you’re using too much, it can get trapped in the resin resulting in a softer cure.
I use half as much AF in lams as hot coat percentage wise. The wax in AF won’t be an issue when you consider that you’re only using a cc per oz of hardener. I have a chart in my glassing room that gives me the amount to use in a given amount of mix, double that if it’s for a fill coat. I don’t eyeball it, although it’s close, I use a 2.5 ml stainless steel measuring spoon to get pretty close to the prescribed amounts, so I’d say using the cap is likely good enough. Never had any issues with bonding between coats. I’ve never put soap and water to a lam so I can’t comment on the pros or cons of that, but it’s nothing to take a sander to the cured lam and rough it up a bit for the fill coat. Probably unnecessary, but I usually light sand the bottom just to ensure good bond as it’s generally fully cured by the time I’m ready to fill coat it.
From the following link, scroll down to the section on Additive F: http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page2.cgi?ID=1029
How much?:
1cc per ounce of hardener = Laminations
2cc per ounce or
hardener = Hot/Gloss Coats
Hi Chris,
I was going for more of the comedy than a true analysis of Additive F.
It probably isn’t wax in Xylene, but another solid instead. Something that doesn’t harm the bond to the next layer of epoxy.
Oh, I would not use a cap full, only a few CC’s out of the cap
No disrespect intended. I believe xylene is an azeotrope. I am not certain whether azeotropes would be considered hydrophobic.
I could be wrong …
We have had contentious discourse about the true composition of Additive F. There appears to be no definitive evidence demonstrating whether the 9:1 xylene:paraffin solution performs adequately as a surfacing agent for epoxy, that is, a substitute for Additive F. Such discussions are often the catalyst for research.
Wax is used in combination with styrene as a surfacing agent for polyester resin. However, I do not believe the process of polymerization and curing for polyester is likely the same as epoxy. If the xylene:paraffin mix was created in the image of the styrene:paraffin agemt, the underlying logic may be flawed.
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Xylene is hydrophobic ...
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No disrespect intended. I believe xylene is an azeotrope. I am not certain whether azeotropes would be considered hydrophobic.
I could be wrong ...
We have had contentious discourse about the true composition of Additive F. There appears to be no definitive evidence demonstrating whether the 9:1 xylene:paraffin solution performs adequately as a surfacing agent for epoxy, that is, a substitute for Additive F. Such discussions are often the catalyst for research.
Wax is used in combination with styrene as a surfacing agent for polyester resin. However, I do not believe the process of polymerization and curing for polyester is likely the same as epoxy. If the xylene:paraffin mix was created in the image of the styrene:paraffin agemt, the underlying logic may be flawed.
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Actually, you're likely correct. I was basing my statement on my experience with Resin X where I used Xylene when glassing in high humidity situations to slow down the reaction of the moisture with the urethane which slowed the resin "kick." I assumed that because it did this, it was hydrophobic.
I haven't checked, but Isn't there an MSDS for Additive F?
Yes, at this link:
http://www.foamez.com/pdfs/Additive%20F%20MSDS.pdf
What we know with relative certainty is that Additive F contains 85% xylene.
What I find odd in all of this discussion is… Why we really need to use the stuff at all ?
One of the often mentioned marketing sales pitch advantages of using epoxy surfboard resins is it’s low VOC. content… Which certain manufacturers work diligently at lowering as much as possible…
So… For what I assume are purely cosmetic reasons, products containing a benzene derivative like xylene are then added to these low VOC epoxies mainly for improved appearance and perhaps blush control…
Kind of nullifies the whole “low VOC” argument altogether… IMHO…
I’ve used Add F and sure it works great for what it’s intended…
But so did acetone for cleaning tools and such… And I’m supposedly smart enough not to do that anymore…
I’m starting to question the logic of working on a board that has xylene evaporating out of a hot coat…
Here’s loads of Xylene reading material, if you’re interested:
VanHelsing.
[quote="$1"]
What I find odd in all of this discussion is.... Why we really need to use the stuff at all ?
One of the often mentioned marketing sales pitch advantages of using epoxy surfboard resins is it's low VOC. content... Which certain manufacturers work diligently at lowering as much as possible...
So... For what I assume are purely cosmetic reasons, products containing a benzene derivative like xylene are then added to these low VOC epoxies mainly for improved appearance and perhaps blush control..
Kind of nullifies the whole "low VOC" argument altogether... IMHO...
I've used Add F and sure it works great for what it's intended...
But so did acetone for cleaning tools and such... And I'm supposedly smart enough not to do that anymore...
I'm starting to question the logic of working on a board that has xylene evaporating out of a hot coat...
Here's loads of Xylene reading material, if you're interested:
http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=toxicology+of+xylene&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=4xTeULHHG8SkqwGS6ICoAw&ved=0CDAQgQMwAA
VanHelsing.
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Well, it's still low VOC compared to kicking styrene. You may already realize this, but if you have good ventilation, you'll hardly smell the xylene once you pour the resin on the board. Xylene is "okay" at 100 ppm, so if you're glassing in a typical glass shop, a few cc's likely aren't going to give off enough fumes to mess you up. Regardless, using AF or not you should wear a respirator with organic cartridges.
Thanks for the reply surfthis…
But my question still stands… Do we really even need this additive?
VanHelsing.