The issues that DP brought up have been discussed many times over and a great length here at Swaylocks. I think we’ve concluded that poly, epoxy, wood, or whatever can coexist here because we do not limit our potential for innovation to a fixed range of design, materials, or construction techniques. Those of us not into the R&D aspects freely give advice to new builders since they may well be innovators later on. Garage and small-scale shops are where virtually all new designs are conceived, refined, sometimes tossed in the trash and sometimes sold to the corporate world.
Randy French had to sell his first surfboard, he didn’t start with $100,000,000 in sales. We can take him. Stay away from Wal Mart. Don’t buy a surfboard at Costco. Sell your Surftechs to beginners and make a vacuum bag sandwich board like in Bert’s posts. Keep Parmenter happy, keep buying his incredible shapes - so he doesn’t have to write any more crap like that, jeesh! Support your local custom board builder!
What is the future custom board really going to be like? If you follow Bert’s advice and jump in, you have a lot of reading and research to do before you can even consider the physical model… I went to a seminar on vacuum bagging, Friday, at Cerritos College - one of the leading plastics and composites manufacturing technology centers on the planet. (Thanks, Glenn…) I was almost embarrassed to admit that my passion was - surfboards - and sat in with three gentlemen from Korea who were getting the latest “facts” on vacuum bagging so they could take their million dollar autoclave and silicon bags back to their country and start producing nose cones for rockets. Yep, we are finally in step with “rocket scientists” And you know what? They were every bit excited with their million dollar equipment as I was excited to find a $49 dollar pump on e-Bay! And they didn’t know everything, weren’t afraid to ask stupid questions, or anything like that, and when it came time for the hands on part of the seminar, they weren’t afraid to get their gloved hands dirty. They taught me a bunch about attitude…
If any young 'uns find this path…
Cerritos College Plastics/Composites Manufacturing Technology
(the fun factory)
Course Offerings: (Sample)
PMT 70 - Composite Technology - 2.5 units
This course emphasizes proper lay-up, vacuum bagging, and cure processing of wet laminating techniques and preimpregnated materials. Processes of resin transfer molding (RTM), filament winding, pultrusion, bonding, and fabrication of composite structures with honeycomb core materials are also covered.
This is one of twelve classes plus seven more nine week “short” courses.
$11.00 per unit and $45.00 miscellaneous fees.
You’ll be surfin and learnin, kinda wish I was a young 'un again…
Having had my own learning experience in this field, I would highly recommend to anyone considering doing these courses should do so as soon as possible.
If you don’t have a lot of experience, this is the perfect opportunity to get your hands on experience, and your surfboards will improve immediately.
And I think I can assure you, those fees are dirt cheap for what you would learn.
Good info daddio.
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I have to agree with Bert.
I love Dave’s boards, I own five of them (2-9’0"s, 2-7’0"s and a 7’4") and would buy more if I found the right one. His stuff is always reasonable priced, paddles well and just works for an old fart surfer like me.
All the west side folks love Dave as well. He’s one of the few shapers I would buy off the shelf no questions asked. His vector, malolo and new fish designs are light years ahead of the pack.
Unfortunately the problem is the glass jobs on his boards, at least the ones I bought from Hale Nalu and BK West absolutely suck. Bump it the wrong way against your car or when you place it down on the ground and voila another new ding to worry about. Kind of makes having a great board useless when you patching it all the time.
Now I’ve accidently dropped my epoxy surftech when showering, had them fly off my racks or car hood on a windy day with absolutely no damage. I can’t say that for 90% of the polys I own with the exception of George Ku’s boards. But then again George has always built his boards extra tough for the Northshore with double and triple 6 and no gloss to save weight. The majority of the other board makers never do this.
Like I said as with all the other “westsiders” I love Dave’s craftmanship, but I also see Grant, Buffalo and a bunch of other DP loyalists riding Surftech longboards instead Parmenters.
Maybe it’s like flatware…
You only bust out the fine china and silverware for those special occasions but use the microwave dishwasher safe stuff on a day to day basis.
I’ll be reading his latest disertation this weekend to try and absorb the mana’o but it printed out at 18 pages even in 10 point font… Geez the dude can write… Why doesn’t he just publish a novel or something for us to kepp for posterity.
Again I’m in Bert’s corner regarding longevity of a woodlammed epoxy sandwich performance vehicles but you have to give a nod to Dave’s wisdom on the whole scheme of things as he sees it.
God I miss Rell…
Wonder what she would say to Dave about it all…
Hey oneula you from the west side? My whole family is from the west side and surf Makaha.
Dave like many others have dabbled many years ago in EPS and epoxy and various other types of construction. I can comment about alot of things i tried a few times BUT i would be speaking from ignorance. Did anyone think that you would shape the exact same board using different materials and constuction and have it work the same or better? It took 50 years to refine the traditional PU shapes to its modern form.
J.Troy,
Do you know Kimo Leone and Sunshine? Kimo is a freind, but he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
J.Troy
No but I have alot of infamous family on Hawaiian homestead in Nanakuli and Maile. I grew up surfing Makaha, Maile, Kea’aus and Green Lanterns. Makaha was always a favorite of mine especially when Rell was alive as there was so much aloha when she was in the water with us. Somehow it doesn’t feel the same any more I almost sense the same angry spirit in Dave’s dissertation.
I grew up in Ewa Beach with Kimo Kauihou who’s Dave’s current glasser (Kepuhi Point). There’s a new Westside magazine called Maika’i that has an cool article about Kimo, the first issue had one about Buff and another childhood friend Cyril. You can get the free Mag at any local Jamba Juice.
Grant(in his late 70’s)comes down to my home break with his sons quite a bit especially if there’s a swell and we’ve talked about how great Dave’s boards are… Funny thing though is although he treasures his custom DP he currently rides a new surftech his son bought him. When I surfed Makaha awhile back I was surprised to see Buffalo on a Surftech Wood Epoxy Longboard. Pretty funny since he can get a DP or RussK any time he wants. I’m sure during this last big well he was riding a BK or DP big gun in place of the popout.
Buffalo at Makaha reminds me of “Hawaiian” at Ali’i where you are. Another great character in the lineup.
As far as duplicating boards in EPS I don’t think that that’s Bert’s take is on this whole new technology. To me it’s more about a lighter, flexier device that lasts 10 times longer without have to using triple 6’s or volan and tje associated weight. That’s my take on this whole EPS/Epoxy/Wood/Vacuum technique. The Surftech argument is just silly, whatever Randy and Kym have coming to them it’ll happen sooner or later.
Hey Solo I also agree with you that McCoy and Cheyne have been the biggest miss in surfing for a long time. McCoy/Cheyne should as much get more credit for the no-nose than the whole thruster rollout.
As far as the ongoing discussion Surfers and Surf Culture is such a microdot in the whole global economic system it’s not funny so don’t kid yourself. For the idealists who are planning on changing the world please give me an ETA on when you plan on getting rid of either WalMart and Microsoft since they have had such a greater negative impact on the “small guy” than Surftech ever did. Apparantly your boycotting hasn’t changed a thing. I can then adjust my investment portfolio before they tank like Apple, Enron, Merck, and Phizer did.
What I learned from Rell is that you do what you do to the best of your abilities and live life in an honest and clean way but live it to its fullest as you never know how much time you have. Like the kupuna say the more aloha you give, the more you’ll receive. You may not get it right away or from those you give it to but it’ll come.
The good ones always seem to die young it’s so sad… But somehow as we keep going on we need to remember them to keep from getting bitter in our old age…
everybody is freaking out on vacuum construction at the moment like its the “new thing”…
Bert was saying that he was doing this 15 years ago. if you look at every windsurfing website for the last 15-20 years they all have been doing the same lay up. no offense bert, your post was more than interesting but i dont understand why people are so stocked on “the new deal”.
the tom sullivan video is about 15 years old and they show exactly what bert is showing.
the question i have to ask is why it didnt take off 15 years ago, why we are still riding polyester?
probably because it work so good… dont you think?
i know a factory in my area that build custom winsurfer the same as bert and also polyester surfboards.they are equip to do both but why they still do polyester boards??
i have a friend in europe that own a big factory and they have been experimenting with it for a while and the feed back they have from the rider (maybe they are not use to it) was that they are too light, too stiff and dont feel as good as a polyester. it cant be propaganda because the guy as no soul towards polyester, he just want better and he is looking for an alternative.
bert do you get those feedback? are they too light???
i am confuse.
is it a new learning curve to ride those boards?
SPEAKIN’ Howz the Blears,Hawk.Tell Herb sayz howzit.Herb
Howzit Herb, Jimmy Blears moved here last year and is/ was living with his sister and her husband. He showed up one day to help us judge a contest and we cracked up since we hadn't seen each other since the early 70's before I moved to Kauai. I haven't seen him around for a while so he may have gone back to Oahu since his dad is in bad health and has dementia also. He looks a lot older than he is and gets a little spacey when you talk to him but he can still hold it together enough to be a good judge and it's fun working with him at the contests. We were scheduled to judge a contest yesterday but it was cancelled due to the big surf. I figured if he was still on Kauai he would be there to judge but now I'll ask around to see if he's still here. Aloha,Kokua
K
Sorry to hear about The Lord’s health.Guess something we all will face,if not now, soon,aye.
Laura might remember me better.We use to surf Makaha mid-day alot in 74-76.Most of the times just a group of girls and me…nice!I always use to melt when Laura would show-up.She was so nice to me and say something first,but I was so bashful I could hardly get a squeek out…she’d probably remember me as the kid who lived in the bend of the road on Makui(sp?) w/ Jamie"Hawk"Monroe,my older bro Bob,and Aaron.Herb
"everybody is freaking out on vacuum construction at the moment like its the “new thing”… "
You mean everyone on Swaylocks right?
Has anyone showed the process step by step before here for free? No. Many guys realize that vac is not new but seeing it done step by step was impressive…and I dont easily impress. Freakazoid.
Are Surftech’s the “new thing”?
A lighter less dent resistant (more durable) surfboard is a good “new thing”. The only real problem people have is where they’re made, market share and who’s making the profits. I know people who have been surfing 30 years and are now using Surftechs…again lighter stronger. Thats the reality. I dont own one but I plan to make me something very close, if not better, myself.
Done PU and EPS…
onward…
PS - I plan to go lighter and lighter until it stops serving me well…next stop < 6lb…journey onward…
Surftechs are pressure molded…not vac/molded…a BIG,BIG difference guys.
…Then they’re painted w/ appliance epoxy.Herb
I think if you read all the posts regarding Bert’s (and others) vacuum molding process, you’ll see why some of us are freaking out. As Meecrafty points out, he lays it out for all to see and isn’t asking a penny in return. If guys like Michael Jones can glue up a dual density blank, sandwich it with high density foam and fiberglass and come out with a sub 5 pound board that after a year of use doesn’t even have a pressure dent (in his living room no less), aren’t you freaking out?!
I’ve read lots of posts about the evil third world boards and loss (or potential loss) of surfing industry jobs in the US. This might not support the industry but it is an alternative… do it strong, do it light and do it yourself at home.
Too light? That’s a good one!
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The only real problem people have is where they're made, market share and who's making the profits..
Are you trying to say that all of us who simply don’t like the way they feel and surf are lying? Sure, we have problems with the things with the who, where, and the money but we also simply don’t like the way surftech boards surf: they are too stiff, sound weird, are too corky, etc.
As for durability, who cares? I’ve had a Harbour Simms longboard for the last 5 years. It was Terry’s board before I bought it used so it obviously didn’t come to me in perfect condition. It’s been repaired by me, and one “fix a bunch of stuff for $110” trip to a real ding guy. It doesn’t look so great but it still surfs great and I wouldn’t trade it for half a dozen new surftechs. The only way this thing will leave me is if you give me a brand new one exactly the same. The only other boards I’ve surfed during the time of this longboard ownership are also still alive and with very few dings (a CI thruster, a Cole thruster, and occasional use of vintage twins I dig up, and a Harbour Spherical Revolver). I live in Nor Cal and surf waves from Ocean Beach to Santa Cruz that are as large and powerful as 90% of surfers in California. So forgive me for not seeing any benefit in the “stronger” claim of surftech (or balsa or whatever). I don’t think 90% of the surfers need a stronger board.
it is true that it will keep up against surftech but my question is do they really surf well???
i guess i will build one to see for myself.
i am sick of everybody’s feedback about too light or too stiff… people are pissing me off, i am building polyester boards at the moment and the complain are too heavy or too weak!!! figure it out??
is the mass dumb?
surfers are never happy?
Greetings!
It is my (I, Bonta) opinion that the feedback is of limited value! I ride a surfing board of the most heavy stiff weight and durable strength. It is the awesome greatest for domination! The proof is many complaining bookies as I run them over to the left and to the right! Bonta (myself) am also sick of everybody’s pissing off feedback!! Therefore standing firmly upon the sandy beaches I shall proudly proclaim, “You truly are the dumb masses because you are the pissed off bookies!”
The bookies I surf against are never happy.
Maybe I’m wrong but my take on the vacuum bag stuff is a little different. I was thinking that I would just order a shaped regular board from any of the great shapers here in Hawaii and then wood lam and epoxy glass the board myself using the technique Bert showed us and what I’m learning about balsa strip lamming from Surfgear.
You don’t have to use EPS and you don’t have to epoxy once you build the wood shell around the foam with the vacuum.
You should end up with a stronger board with a thicker more protective skin around the foam. And it shouldn’t ride too much different than a regular board. That’s my goal. The cheap home depot styro blanks do open the door for alot more experimentation in the masses to happen as we’re witnessing here and that’s good.
I agree EPS Surftech shortboards ride crappy if you don’t have the juice cause they can’t carry momentum after a big carve unless you wiggle your ass like most modern high performance surfers do. If you surf like BK or Terry Fritz you’ll struggle with a surftech unless it’s a longboard. If you hop, launch or do 20 turns in ten feet of horizontal you’ll love them. As such I don’t think Surftechs are really purchased for their performance qualities.
But it must mean something that so many are being sold. In my opinion its the final transition where a specialized product moves from an artsy space into just another retail commodity that you buy like everything else you purchase nowadays. The current artisans need to differentiate by improving time to market, quality of product, and level of customer service. People will seek out and pay a premium if they can understand the added value. That’s why Bert can sell his boards for $1000 and a years wait, because his cliental comprehend that the value being delivered is worth the cost in time and money. Until that happens to the rest of the industry the best retailer will continue to win the lions share of the market. Product management 101.
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J.Troy
No but I have alot of infamous family on Hawaiian homestead in Nanakuli and Maile. I grew up surfing Makaha, Maile, Kea’aus and Green Lanterns. Makaha was always a favorite of mine especially when Rell was alive as there was so much aloha when she was in the water with us. Somehow it doesn’t feel the same any more I almost sense the same angry spirit in Dave’s dissertation.
I grew up in Ewa Beach with Kimo Kauihou who’s Dave’s current glasser (Kepuhi Point). There’s a new Westside magazine called Maika’i that has an cool article about Kimo, the first issue had one about Buff and another childhood friend Cyril. You can get the free Mag at any local Jamba Juice.
Grant(in his late 70’s)comes down to my home break with his sons quite a bit especially if there’s a swell and we’ve talked about how great Dave’s boards are… Funny thing though is although he treasures his custom DP he currently rides a new surftech his son bought him. When I surfed Makaha awhile back I was surprised to see Buffalo on a Surftech Wood Epoxy Longboard. Pretty funny since he can get a DP or RussK any time he wants. I’m sure during this last big well he was riding a BK or DP big gun in place of the popout.
Buffalo at Makaha reminds me of “Hawaiian” at Ali’i where you are. Another great character in the lineup.
As far as duplicating boards in EPS I don’t think that that’s Bert’s take is on this whole new technology. To me it’s more about a lighter, flexier device that lasts 10 times longer without have to using triple 6’s or volan and tje associated weight. That’s my take on this whole EPS/Epoxy/Wood/Vacuum technique. The Surftech argument is just silly, whatever Randy and Kym have coming to them it’ll happen sooner or later.
Hey Solo I also agree with you that McCoy and Cheyne have been the biggest miss in surfing for a long time. McCoy/Cheyne should as much get more credit for the no-nose than the whole thruster rollout.
As far as the ongoing discussion Surfers and Surf Culture is such a microdot in the whole global economic system it’s not funny so don’t kid yourself. For the idealists who are planning on changing the world please give me an ETA on when you plan on getting rid of either WalMart and Microsoft since they have had such a greater negative impact on the “small guy” than Surftech ever did. Apparantly your boycotting hasn’t changed a thing. I can then adjust my investment portfolio before they tank like Apple, Enron, Merck, and Phizer did.
What I learned from Rell is that you do what you do to the best of your abilities and live life in an honest and clean way but live it to its fullest as you never know how much time you have. Like the kupuna say the more aloha you give, the more you’ll receive. You may not get it right away or from those you give it to but it’ll come.
The good ones always seem to die young it’s so sad… But somehow as we keep going on we need to remember them to keep from getting bitter in our old age…
Rell was very close to several members of my family. If you surf Makaha then you should know the DeSoto family. John, Bruce, Ronald, Duane, etc…
Rells wake was at my mother inlaws house in Makaha valley and they were close friends.
As far as DP hes a friend of the family and a nice guy…in fact he taught my uncle Bruce how to shape and even gave him a skill 100 to start. Hes interesting though, on one hand hes anti surf industry and on the other he makes a living in it.
Traditional poly/pu shapes Vs. Epoxy and other types of constuction, I agree the argument is somewhat silly.
Like em hate em indifferent. Like in every other industry the market will decide what they want. Surftech doesnt seem to be going anywhere and in fact seems to be growing so I guess the market has decided that they do WANT a stronger board that lasts without pressure dents and dings that traditional boards get so often.
So as it is in every other industry you need to be flexible. Evolve and change or go the way of the dinasour. Not saying the traditional shape will be pushed out anytime soon but changes are not only coming but already here.
I give guys like Greg L and Bert props for having the foresight and dedication to develop new materials and construction techniques AND to offer it to me and you here on Swaylocks.
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J.Troy,
Do you know Kimo Leone and Sunshine? Kimo is a freind, but he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
No but the names sound familiar.
well it seems like some of the same old content has circulated once again …
its seems i may have appeared miffed in my response to some of daves critique about composites in regards to eps, sandwich,timber,pvc, epoxy and so on …
they were the main points that caught most of my attention , i do accept that those words were written some time back , so chances are he may have had time to revise some of those assumptions about eps /epoxy/sandwich…
and like solosurfer pointed out and with which i fully agree , was the points about the responsability of the surf media (or lack of it) …
i did actually agree with many of the points about surftech in regards to performance …
but theres some basic points i really have to make clear …
are all p/u p/e constructed boards high performance ???
is there much difference between performance in the shapes of a range of different shapers ???
those two questions highlight the point that not all p/u p/e boards ride the same …
so why is it that when a handful of board builders make a few epoxy boards they feel they can label a whole new branch of surfboard construction just coz they couldnt work out how to get those materials to perform ???
lets say there was no epoxy , eps, pvc, or any sandwich materials in existence…
and the only thing we had to choose from was either a custom constructed p/u p/e or a moulded p/u p/e …
what would be the choice of the majority of surfers ???
who would be the market for the moulded p/u p/e boards ???
ok so only kooks and kids would use moulded p/u p/e boards …
see the point there…
so what does the fact that you have experienced long time surfers riding moulded sandwich boards really tell you???
if a custom p/u p/e is way superior in performance and preference to a pop out moulded p/u p/e …
then how much more so is a custom epoxy sandwich going to be superior in performance and preference to a moulded epoxy sandwich board …
the point was made that what i was showing was getting done 15 years ago …
my point exactly , thats why i had no trouble showing it coz its what i was doing 15 years ago …
but unless someone showed it ,where would the mainstream industry get a chance to jump in ???
what i showed was a door way to the next level … once at the next level there is still way more mindblowing stuff to discover …
and yet people exist that would have no trouble trying to shut that door on others , saying " o yea i had a look inside , didnt like it , you wont like it either , dont bother going in !!!" …
history is full of examples of explorers who made a judgement on a place without having a good look around to discover all the riches a place had to offer …
the dutch snubbed australia and didnt even want it because there first encounter with australia was in inhospitable section of coastline with lazy natives …
they concluded that nothing would grow , the natives would be no good as slaves , and because of the lack of precious metals or stones in the possession of the natives , that the land was good for nothing …
but the reality is australia has more natural resources and prime fertile land per head of capita than anywhere else in the world …
so just because a few explorers came across a barren or unproductive part of the eps , epoxy , sandwich equation doesnt mean theres not more riches beneath the surface …
i personally feel that those making the judgements have no authority to do so based on there limited experience …
if i had to add up the number of balsa sandwich boards , with the ones ive built for others under other labels , then the number of eps venneer , eps xtr sandwich combos , xtr sandwich combos , xtr veneer combos , eps pvc combos , then all the epoxy stuff combined with the vac formed veneers over p/u using p/e resin plus the ones ive done for others with other labels and all the stuff that i still havent mentioned id have a figure of between 4500 and 5000 vacumn bagged boards alone , plus working on close to twice that many conventional boards for myself and others …
so when a guy says " i rode a surftech and didnt like it " or says " yea i made a few epoxy boards but they didnt feel any good " i respect those opinions …
but to write off an entire branch of construction based on limited contact with it clearly shows an ignorant attitude …
but here comes the offensive bit to many …
i will write off an entire branch of contruction ,
for the very reason that i have had extensive experience with both …
the fact is i will never make or ride another p/u p/e board ever , except may be to make a mould from …
i had a customer come in today to order a board …
he already has 2 surftechs , he only just recently found out about me as hes just moved from overseas , he made the comment today " i cant believe its taken the surfboard industry so long to move forward " he then said " i reckon in ten years sandwich boards will become industry standard " …
with no real experience of my boards or my work he was willing to hand over 400 bucks deposit and wait another year to hand over the other 1000 for a longboard … just based on his experience with surftechs and the fact that he could now get a custom sandwich board …
so why would i go back to haggling with tightarses over a cheap polyester board that the guy up the road would only do cheaper , then if the price still wasnt right that same tightass would go get a cheap imported asian poly pop out that a retailer is selling at no profit just to get the profit with a few accessories he sells with the board , only to have the same tightass come back 3 months later whingeing that his board isnt as light or as strong as a surftech , and that hes got dents all over his deck and his board is going brown where the dings are , and how it shrunk and collapsed after he left it in his car on a hot day …
surftech sold 18 000 boards last year …
theres 18 000 customers in the market for a custom sandwich board …
you do the maths …
unless you want every board in the world to come out of asian production houses , then the only real salvation of the surfboard industry is the custom sandwich , what else is going to restore the balance ??
many conventional boards are already artificially placed in the market place for no other reason than to prop up the validity of clothing labels …
you can guarantee that if labels like rusty and a few other board producing labels didnt force retailers into stocking boards just to get the clothing , the retailers wouldnt stock the boards …
the reason some of these labels are still selling boards and arent interested in pushing the boundries of construction in surfboards is because they have a comfortable market because retailers want access to there clothing and so are forced to stock antiquated boards …
what that does to the credibility of a clothing label only time will tell??
theres many stories and reasons why different agendas are pushed by the different players in the industry …
but the fact that im touting a particular direction with no financial interests at stake , only seems to make what i have to say more valid …
dig a little deeper , read between the lines , search for untapped resources …
its all there in abundance …
not all the explorers have seen everything …
regards
BERT