It’s not deragatory it’s a discription. I agree on the surfers you mentioned. I have never personally been into boogie boarding. I think it’s it’s own culture. Knee surfing is something totally different.
The fact that this argument is taking place all over the internet but can’t be found in a single surf magazine is evidence enough that commercial forces that dominate this industry are not concerned with history, innovation, human rights, or stewardship.
I read Dave’s entire article. It took a while but I got through it and now I’m feeling a little guilty cause I bought a long skateboard (G&S with Kryptonics) down at the Walmart cause it was $100 and the only other ones I found were at least $80 more. Made in China is a good point. Assholes like me are putting the little guy out of business. True Patriots don’t just put a yellow ribbon on our car and talk shit about towelheads and liberals, they support American business. Surfboard building is one of the last few places where that is still possible.
The skateboard isn’t my last confession. I ordered a Takayama tufflite 9’0 speedshape from my local surfshop a little over two years ago because I was looking for a good ‘travel’ board that would work from knee to triple overhead at non-critical spots. It has been a good board for me, and after I forgot to fix a little hole and it took on some water (a little more weight) it works even better.
I know it’s more durable as far as everyday stuff goes (transport, bouncing off the reef on a head high day, hitting other boards, etc) but as far as going over the falls on a big day I know eventually it’s gonna break if I don’t take care even though it’s suprised me so far.
The big thing is it’s extremely difficult and expensive to get a custom Takayama, and until I moved to Hawaii there weren’t any local shapers making boards that even closely resembled it, it would have taken them forever, and they probably still wouldn’t get it right. Would I do it again? I don’t really have an answer for that. My needs have changed since then and now I live in an area where there are a lot of really quality custom guys live, and unless the Tak dies a sudden death I’m not going to be in the market for another longboard for a while.
I would never buy an epoxy board for bigger surf. In the kind of waves where you can get hurt really bad, some sort of interaction with a shaper is critical. Besides, nobody wants a corky, rigid, chop-slapper when the offshores are howling.
I think this is where most of Parmenter’s argument about performace is based out of since the waves here are much more powerful and unforgiving, and tufflites will snap just like regular boards. In crappy small conditions where people are bumping rails in the crowd and trying stupid “go for it” maneuvers over the reef and rocks Tufflites make way more sense. Instead of being destroyed, you just slap some JB weld on it and paddle out again. Maybe ASP guys would complain about performance in those conditions, but that’s their livelyhood and they get their boards for free.
Parmenter had a good prediction when he talked about the core eventually coming back. The one part he left out was the innundation of the market with the popout boards. Cobra will have plenty of competition soon enough, and with the average functional life of these boards lasting 10 or more years the used market will soon be flooded. With the addition of big box stores selling them the prices will soon be through the floor (maybe that’s why they’re charging so much for them now). The core poplulation will always lean towards one thing…being able to learn from, share ideas, and talk with their shapers and retailers who actually KNOW something about surfing besides the lyrics to “soak up the sun” or being able to name surf star cameos on network tv.
That’s why discussions like this are so important. By keeping the conversation going even after it seems the man has won, we are writing the next chapter and opening it up to new generations who will inevitably get fed up with the ad copy hype and search for something more real. All big business can do is watch and react. The challenge for the little guy is paying the bills in the meantime.
On that note, the skate is mine now and I can’t take it back. I won’t buy any more tufflites, though, just like I won’t buy another Dell after they sent all their customer service overseas. There’s nothing wrong with popouts (besides seeing another one on the beach and wanting to hide), but personally I want the interaction with a shaper where I might have a chance to actually learn something.
Practically anything made in China is automatically crap, Surftech boards included.
I enjoyed reading DP’s very scathing and biting comments, but found them a bit elitist. He seems to classify all surfers as either kooks or progressives with nothing in between. What a load of s##t!
And to say that our Western lifestyle based such as it is on technology that pollutes and thus our (not so ancient) pu/pe surfboards are just another part of that polluting technology so why bother getting all worked up about it is a total cop-out. (And if that is your attitude then please don’t bitch about sewage in the line-up!)
What we really need are two types of board construction materials:
-
Those that last practically forever and produce very little toxic waste during the construction process, and
-
Those that don’t last forever, but are completely recyclable, like those plastic PET bottles drinking water, soft drinks, etc., comes in!
Guess what? Surfboards made of wood pretty much fulfill both requirements!
And contrary to popular belief, epoxy can be made out of vegetable oil. Think about it. Where the hell do you think all that oil in the ground came from? Prehistoric swamps (i.e., plants), that’s where!
There was a Surfer’s Path not too long ago which had a story about a board made from a balsa tree grown in an enclosed experimental ecosystem in the UK of all places (balsa is a tropical species), and glassed with hemp and vegetable based epoxy. Granted, this is not going to soon become commonplace, but it shows that surfboards can be produced in a totally ecologically sound manner.
Did you know that the diesel engine was originally designed to run on vegetable oil and, with a few very minor modifications modern diesels can burn vegetable oil?
Finally, for those of you so concerned about the exploitation of 3rd world workers in the manufacture of Surftech type boards, can I safely assume that you do not patronize surf resorts such as Tavarua (in Fiji) and Salani (in Samoa) since they are more or less guilty of the same type of exploitation of 3rd world countries and their native employees (minus the exposure to toxic chemicals)?
Quote:
Finally, for those of you so concerned about the exploitation of 3rd world workers in the manufacture of Surftech type boards, can I safely assume that you do not patronize surf resorts such as Tavarua (in Fiji) and Salani (in Samoa) since they are more or less guilty of the same type of exploitation of 3rd world countries and their native employees (minus the exposure to toxic chemicals)?
I just want to see the bleeding heart liberals in much of the surf industry practice what they preach. China and many of these countries use slavery, child labor, and abject slavery to get work done that they sell to modern so called civilized countries. China slaughtered 30 million of it’s own people and still is a totalitarian communist country.
I don’t see how we can squawk about human rights and enviromentalism (as do many of our surfer non profit organizations) and then paddle around on a product made on the blood and backs of exploited workers. It does not matter how nice the factories are or if they are state of the art. We are supporting governments that are not only our enemies, but stand for everything we as Americans say we are against.
Instead of pretending to be against slavery and for our fellow human beings; We should just fess up and say we are not for those things in America, but it’s ok in other countries as long as I can buy my clothing, computers, and other things cheaper than the American worker can produce them.
Yes we are all going to have to buy some things made in these countries, but we should be selective.
With all of the really good shapers in America and Australia, why in the world would someone buy a popout made in Thailand or a surfboard shaped in China by a non surfer? Why do we continue to give credit and support to surfing magazines which could care less about our sport? Why do we follow a pro tour that discourages experimentation so the so called industry can continue to make a buck off their surfers?
I will take a board created by someone out of their own ingenuity and experimentation any day over some plug made in a mass produced factory by money grubbing hypesters.
Of course this is simply my opinion and you know how those are…
The discussion is very interesting, and I appreciate the struggle and the need for debate. We as humans are inherently inconsistent. What we need is not always what we want…what we want is not always what we need. An ethical stance that is not contradictory is impossible to maintain in a real world. As users of technology, we naturally use technical advances, knowing that to do so involves the support of technological industries that exploit, as well as the use of some non-biodegradable materials. Supporting the small business shaper also means supporting the large industries that supply some of the materials. The best we can do is to be aware of the good and the bad, and try to limit the damage as best we can.
My personal yardstick is my need to know something about the man who shapes my board, the man who glasses it, etc. Ideally for me, that is the same person, and that personal relationship is what gives me a better connection to the surfboard, makes it more fun to use because it has been created out of a collaborative effort, and has taught me something about myself in the process. Even better when you make your own board.
My sense is that much if this debate has to do with differing perceptions, a mixed sense of dread, about how much those kinds of personal relationships are dwindling with the growth of popout surfboards and the growth of the mercantile hype, regardless of attitudes about epoxy vs. polyester resin. To each his own in terms of personal preference about the technology used, the subtleties of shape and design. It is our relationship to surfing, and to other surfers, that speaks to our core, and to lose that would be a great loss indeed.
You’ve personally been into boogie boarding and think it’s it’s own culture. You think knee surfing is something totally different. O.K. now HOW do YOUR ideas about bodyboarding apply to custom boards? If knee boarding is “something totally different” what do they have to do with “custom” boards? Thanx…
Mark,
I have nothing against either of them and they have made their share of contributions. Since we all have our own opinions here (understatement) mine is that Boogie boarding and stand up surfing are not the same thing. I respect some of the stuff guys like Mike Stewart do, but it does not motivate me to want to go buy a boogie board nor does it spark me in any way the same as someone cranking a bottom turn and driving through a section. Kneeboarding draws many of the same lines as stand up surfers do, so I can appreciate it more than boogie boarding. Knee boards are short surfboards.
I still personally think the state of the art is stand up surfing.
“I still personally think the state of the art is stand up surfing.”
It would be fun to see you try to defend that perspective. What a great idea for a thread!
The sensual art of individual, creative freedom.
To many of us, “state of the art stand up surfing” is meaningless. An oxymoron.
If a craft’s performance feels good, does “custom” really matter?
Righteous perspective Parker. State of the art surfing equals minimum ego and maximum enjoyment, by riding the wave, not the wave tool. The art is in the artist.
Minimum ego, therein lies the challenge.
for a trully custom board, check out kelly slater riding a coffee table!
http://202.94.36.7/jmc/gallery.html
and someone surfing a door…insane
Rio
Solosurfer wrote “Knee boards are short surfboards.”
Actually it’s kinda the other way round! Kneeboards and kneeboarding, George Greenough in particular, were responsible for inspiring the shortboard revolution.
In addition, kneeboards are not just “short surfboards”. They have their own design parameters and peculiar idiosyncrasies.
Custom door, custom coffee table, from WalMart? I’ll have to check my local store. Probably tough to paddle, though!
Tow in…opening new doors, um, tables, err, whatever.
I think we should all look at our industry. I just read the article on Al Merrick, being shaper of the year. I feel it is wrong that he said that he is looking out for his business and that is the reason that he is making the pop-outs from Taiwan.
That is wrong, I know that Al is a great shaper and I have no problem that he stated in the article that he has 12-ghost shapers working for him (Hell, I would not mind at all if I was working for him, I would consider it an honor) but where do we as manufacture’s call the line.
I know that most of the clothes we buy from our surf shops are made form other counties other then the United States and we pay a pretty penny for them. I do go to my surf shops and buy their T-shirts and I wear them, instead of wearing the name brands.
I don’t think there is a need to go to another county and have them makes pop-outs for us and then we pay $400.00 for them. I feel that we should stay with the ones that our made in our county wither they are made by hand or by a machine.
As long as they are from the states, I know there are a lot of you guys saying that I am selling out because I said the word “Machine” but is Al, Rusty or whom ever can’t have enough ghost shapers to fill the need, then let a machine do it.
I live in Southern California, and have started a surfboard company; I have been to 4 different locations here where shapers are using the machines. You would be surprise on who is using them, they even have ads in the magazines saying that, “they have shaped every one by hand”
I want to make this clear, I know that Al Merrick is a great shaper, I take nothing away from that, but I feel that he is hurting the business of ours and Anyone else who sell out to a foreign county to make more money, if you have to do that to make money
Then stop living beyond your limit, take a look at your company and try again.
I’m just a regular surfer-Joe.
Yeah, it’s true that I rip, but I am no pro.
Speaking of pros, the best in the world like the same materials we have been using for 60 years, with the exception of a few paid guys who, eventually, end up back on the regular stuff anyway.
Martin Potter said the S-Core was basically crap. He said it at the Boost Mobile Pro this past summer.
Surftech makes a crappy product.
Polystyrene with epoxy is a fun way to make boards. It’s light, and is more or less the same strength as the urethane models.
But it is NOT going to dominate as we cement ourselves into the 21st century.
If it was THAT much better than polyurethane it would have taken over by now.
How long will guys continue to shout about its merits?
It would have taken over by now if it was that much better.
If you are really interested in coming up with SUPERIOR technology, invent it. Stop trying to force feed everyone the same crap that’s been in the magazine for years.
Surtechs are made by cheap labor in Asia. They deprive Americans of good jobs and enslave the third world. The third world will do better if they learn to be independent and are NOT manipulated by the first world. Just leave them alone and they will do well.
Asia always did well, UNTIL the West screwed with them.
I like the old school way of making boards.
It’s also the new school way.
And you can take that to the bank.
Quote:
Al Merrick is a great shaper, I take nothing away from that, but I feel that he is hurting the business of ours and Anyone else who sell out to a foreign county to make more money, if you have to do that to make money
I’m totally against surftech on a technology level (i don’t like the way they surf) and labor level, but to be fair to Al Merrick, he has what, two surftech models? He stated in the article that by selling those, he has noticed that it has increased his business for his regular boards, as he predicted it would do. This means his association with surftech has led to more jobs here in the USA overall, not less. Odd to think about it that way but I have no reason to doubt his analysis of the effect on his business.
Quote:
If you are really interested in coming up with SUPERIOR technology, invent it.
A few of us try to…
Quote:
It would have taken over by now if it was that much better.
I’m not sure that market domination equals better…
Quote:
I like the old school way of making boards.
It’s also the new school way.
You said it…!!!..
Sorry to bring back such an old thread but I just discovered it for the first time.
I think time has proven Mr Parmenter to be all wet in his diotribe at the begining of this thread. SurfTech’s are a superior product plain and simple. The technology employed by SurfTech is being used by others to take surfboarf construction to the next level…a level that could never be reached with traditional methods.
Also I resent Parmenter’s assertion that Surftech’s are somehow kook boards. Time has proven him wrong once again. You can now find plenty of great surfers riding Surftechs, Firewires and other boards built with technologies that Parmenter so deeply resents.
I have been surfing for over 25 years and have probably owned over 100 boards along the way including a surftech and now a firewire. I have also built my share of boards over the years. Of all the boards I have ever owned believe it or not my all time favorite is a Surftech Pop-out of a JC shape. I have surfed this board relentlessly for almost 4 years now and it still looks like new. It also has the same feel and flex as it did when it was new. Did I mention how it still practically looks like a new board!!! One of the great beauties of this particular board is that I like it so much and I don’t have to worry about breaking it because if I do the shop up the street has the identical board on the rack…I can be back in the water in an hour on a board that should ride nearly identical.
I have several shortboards that are much newer than the Surftech I ride that have caved in decks, are full of dings, are delaminated and have lost their liveliness long ago. A typical poly board only lasts a bit over a year for me.
Someone show me a board built the old fashoned way that will hold up like that Surftech I have.
For now the jury is still out for me on the Firewire. I have not had it long enough to see how it will hold up. So far the ride is great though.
I ended up on this site because I was thinking of getting back into making boards. After learning alot here I plan on doing some experimenting with the sandwich techniques that Burt Burger detailed here. Its a great site with a wealth of information.