4th board exp/edge ponderings

General Discussion
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5-5 x 21.25 x 2.5 same outline and (overall) bottom contours/fin-setup to be as my last one

(snapped my last board in an absolutely worthless chest high shorepound closeout…sheared at the front portion of the extra midboard 4 oz patch where it met the single full 4 oz deck layer…the carbon is so unaffected even though it folded pretty hardcore if u look at it from the bottom you wouldnt even know its cleanly busted thru…)

oh well gives me drive to try an edge version…

relative to my 3rd board…

spiral vee runs a bit further up…flatter out tail

Fin setup will be set to best ‘averaged’ placement of last board

Basically the hulled nose rails just keep on going (staying a hint more hullish than a 50-50) into a Malcomb Campbell e-wing type deal, with the edge keeping it well separated from the flat entry to single concave midboard (inner hull.)

It was the best way I could envision the hull rails to hard tail edge transition maintaining rocker in the rail unfortunately it makes for some strange deck foil flow. And almost a subtle bump in the outline…which may be fine as that coincides with where I planned the hulled rails as being close to inner hull depth at midboard (front foot) where the extra rail rocker then kicks in and flows all the way to deck heighth at just behind the lead paddles (the power center of the cluster where the back foot will be)

Kept a LOT more volume overall

Glassing was a BITCH! but its coming out how I envisioned it…definitely will take the time to tape off and make sure that edge is defined, or even sharp!

the hope is it will FEEL better in terms of glide and full rail turns (its also just obsolete doub4 doub4 e-glass polyester so looking heavier to be 7-8 lbs) but still be able to do hard fin cluster snaps/reliability.

i give it a 50-50 chance of being something thats real special or just another learning step…worth a shot thats for sure. Thanks again to all for sharing knowledge and stuff


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SO …no spooned deck this time , Run ? [ Good ! hopefully , no more snappages then !]

    ben

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George Greenough edgeboard, circa 1982:

Photos courtesy of Flexspoon

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…“Aquafiend”, HERE is a board that could rightfully be called the ‘stingray’ !!

 ben

especially that shot where George is flexing the tail…looks like it’s made of rubber ??

[comments , Dale ?? did george mention the materials involved , by any chance…and if it worked , or not ?]

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How might taping it off help create a defined edge?

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chipper the old spoon is still alive and well as I try to ride it in really good waves, and in its thinnest incarnation yet…I haven’t ridden it since mid december as I’ve been on a standup kick lately and also havent sanded down some new trailer placement on it yet. The board that snapped was that really thin standup/kneelo board version (it wasnt really spooned just traditional domed deck)

dale, man now thats single concave entry with variable tail-rail rocker! I’m guessing tough but ugly graphite/epoxy? Did george vaccuum bag that stuff? Man I wish I had the patience of Mr. J! thanks for the pics

mouser, I didnt leave the the foam ‘edge’ itself super sharp when shaping to ease the glassing (learned this from reading some of leev’s experience with his edge boards) so like building up the edge in the last 15" of traditional bottom rail, I’m going to put tape vertically on the little 1/4" (it gets bigger as it goes to tail) vertiacallish section between the rails and bottom, and lay some resin up against it so I can then come back pull tape and sand it down creating a nice place for the water to release. If you look on georgegreenough.com you can see an old pic where he is doing that to some crazy carbon sailboard.

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hi runner !

how do you find those four fins of yours feel when you’re riding standing up, compared to when you’re kneeling ?

ben

oh , and second question …have you tried / WOULD you try say a four box setup with ‘conventional’ shaped quad fins , for a comparison ?

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Quote:

…especially that shot where George is flexing the tail…looks like it’s made of rubber ??

I have a friend who has one of George’s edge boards (looks virtually identical to the one in the pic, except a different color)…and yes, tail of the board consists of two “horns” that extend back from the rails with a semi-parabolic sheet of rubber filling in between the two horns. FWIW, here’s a pic of a different type of “edge” board (circa 72-74). The red perimeter is sheet glass 0.10 to 0.11 inches thick.

214×601 26.4 KB

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Ben,

That’s George (“flexspoon”), but not George Greenough, flexing the edge board. Yes, rubber was used in the

tails… and those edge boards do work very well, but differently from the older deep hulls. Compared to spoons, edge boards have a much higher planing speed, offering a wider variety of tracks, even in junkier surf.

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Quote:

How might taping it off help create a defined edge?

by placing the tape line on your intended ridge or hard edge, it allows you to sand around it without taking down what you want to be the high point. this technique is also used for things like putting in a well-defined (as opposed to a blended) longboard nose concave. think of it as like sanding over the stringer…more of the foam around the stringer sands away, leaving a high point at the wood stringer…it’s like that, only it’s a good thing.

(note: this isn’t to say that you can sand right over the tape…try to keep off it…but it will prevent the small overlaps and keep a nice, hard edge for ya)

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Another ultralight wind surfing flex spoon edge board… George Greenough, 1985

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OH. I keep learning more and more about tape and surfboards.

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macgyver is to duct tape as surfboard shaper is to masking tape. it’s the only tool you’re guaranteed to use in every stage of making a surfboard. so versatile.

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Hey all

I’m the “other” George. That’s me flexing the spoon tail above.

Dale asked me to join in on this edge board discussion.

I’ve only ridden kneeboards and only flexspoons since 1969.

Retired from surfing for many years due to injuries and other factors.

Preparing to surf again so I’m catching up on what’s been going on.

I think I’ve read 1000’s of posts on Swaylocks.

Edge boards as made by Paul Gross and George Greenough. I’ve owned and

ridden 2 edge boards as well as 7 or 8 other flexspoons. These are my

impressions.

Edge boards are complex animals and are very “alive”.

obviously the tail flxes tremendously

The front 75% of the ‘bottom’ of the triplane section twists and

flexes as well as ‘concaving??’ which changes the

shape, outline , depth and width of the board. The runners in my mind

further direct the water flow through the concave bottom, acting

like endplates on a race car and preventing the flow from ‘spilling’ out the sides

and losing efficiency. It conforms or

adjusts to the water surface. You actually feel ripples and chop

through the bottom. There is a thick(1+") center spine in the last

18" of the tail that supports the bolt on fin and forms a slight V

with dual concaves on either side. And the W shape of the trailing

edge with rubber material to prevent cavitation of the fin and allows the

2 tail tips to flex completely independently. There is an old post

by Paul Gross that explains some of this(he would know). I got this board

from Paul around 1982. It was built for a rider who weighed considerably

less than I do/did. Someone around 135 lbs. I weigh between 180-195 depending.

Flex tuning is critical so I am looking at ‘refurbishing’ this board - adding glass in

areas to make it stiffer.

The last edge board made by Paul and owned by Carlos in Spain:

Oh yeah, the ‘red’ board is made from regular glass and polyester resin.

Not sure about Carlos’ board.

The board really flies! Completely non-buoyant! I glue some closed-cell

foam I got at an upholstery shop to give it enough flotation not to sink!

The previous edge board I owned I tried wearing a leash with because it

didn’t float either. Got snaked while in the tube at Rincon rivermouth, the

board got out of my hands and was held down by water pressure. When I tried to

surface for air the leash would not let me so I just ripped it off. Never found the

board! Maybe one of you found it. It was pale blue and it happened around 1981-82.

Anyway the board rides much different than Velo type spoons. You have to be

almost delicate, kinda point and go. No big powerful bottom turns. It ‘finds’ the power.

I think that Dale’s mats were the next logical progression for Greenough, a vehicle that

is never static - constantly changing shape, conforming itself to the wave, finding and

feeling the power. Neutral handling.

Forgot that part. FEELING I rode a foam bellyboard once. I rode a foam surfboard twice.

And I have windsurfed on a 9’6" composite? foam board many, many times. Compared to

a flexspoon(especially the red edge board above) they all offer virtually no feeling or

feedback from the wave and the water. The foam effetively insulates/isolates the rider

from the feelings that I am accustomed to.

One more note, it seems that contrary to popular myth flexspoons can outlast surfbords

when they are contructed properly. The board in center has been ridden regularly for 25 years.

Malibu, Pt. Mugu, Hollywood by the Sea, Rincon, the Ranch, Mexico and Hawaii(Hanalei) .

Build it right and it will last.

Again these are just my impressions based on my personal experience. Your milage may vary.

The ‘other’ George

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chip,

cant give u an honest comparison as the (last) board snapped before I could kneelo it in really good waves (or at all)- and comparing it to 2nd board (flex-fish) isn’t fair I’d say as they were so different…yep someday maybe would like to get setup with lockbox or red-x or something- just got in from the garage after salvaging my old carbon fins and glassing them onto this new one-- man glassing quads on over and over is a labor of love

MTB,

just curious would you ever make another flex based board/kneeboard for yourself? Or plenty stoked just with the hydro? or you still use those older boards on occasion? What are your thoughts on mats?

Flexspoon,

I can’t say how cool it is for you to post that board and your knowledge/observations of it. pretty amazing how forward thinking that board is---- over 20 years ago! curious as to what the rails/spine are made out of…take care all

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yes, thanks heaps George ! and WELCOME !!

…very interesting and enlightening to one in the backwaters of design [apart from good ol’ bert] …don’t see any spoons or edge boards here in perth west australia…

So… are those three boards in the photo yours ??

   ben
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Quote:

… MTB,

just curious would you ever make another flex based board/kneeboard for yourself? Or plenty stoked just with the hydro? or you still use those older boards on occasion? What are your thoughts on mats? …

  1. Yes…if I decide to build another kneeboard. But I used the predecessor to my current three kneeboard quiver almost exclusively for 26 yrs (and it is still in pretty good shape) so, at 66 yo, I don’t presently envision a need to do so.

  2. The hydrofoil paipo board is a fascinating challenge from design, construction, and riding viewpoints and is definitely my primary current interest. The HYPO board is the most recent in a series of about 14 designed (some of which were computer also simulated) over a period of about 7 years. Of the 14, seven were built and another 3 partially built. Of those built, only two could be ridden more than a few tens of feet (even by young, skilled, new school surfers with fast reflexes), and the the HYPO board was the only one to have a reasonable balance between performance and control. The next hydrofoil board I plan to build (after I get a number of non-surfing projects out of the way) is the “full-featured” version of the HYPO board. It should substantially enhance both performance and control.

  3. Everything is a trade-off of some sort. I’m still learning how to ride the HYPO board, so I’m pretty selective about what kind of waves I ride with it. For example, the present version is slow paddling (because of the additional appendages) until one transitions to flight mode, so it is difficult to get into a quickly jacking, lined-up shore break early enough. Also it is a great kelp harvester if sea weed is present (which can make for interesting rides since it not only quickly slows one down, but also tends to arrest a bottom turn when about half way through it). One turns by banking the board; it is extremely easy to bank; is unstable in roll; and is very sensitive to bank angle (as one person who tried it put it: “you don’t turn this board, you just think ‘turn’”). Hence at my present skill level, I generally avoid taking it out in crowds. So, all things considered, I probably presently end up riding it about 25-33% of the times I go surfing.

  4. Yes, per (3), I ride one of my kneeboards, or a bodyboard, or (although rarely) a longboard about 67-75% of the time I surf, depending on conditions.

  5. Dale’s matts? Intriguing…and I plan to get one as soon as I have saved up enough nickles and dimes (will be my first purchased wave-riding vehicle since 1967).

mtb

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Chipfish61,

The board in the center belongs to my spoon riding partner, TX in Oxnard.

The others are mine, both made by Paul Gross. The board on the left is

one of the ‘Project Velo’ boards and has not been ridden.

I found some quotes from Paul about the edge boards:

Quote:

My experience has been that the primary benefit

of flex is that it allows you to use less rocker, because the tail bends away during a

turn, compensating for the low rocker in turns. When the board straightens out, the flat

rocker kicks in again, and you take off. Unless the flex is pretty liberal, not much is

gained. Greenough’s boards flex INCHES when you put a small amount of pressure on the

tails with your finger. Of course, they have NO rocker in the back 60% of the board, so

a

lot of flex is necessary. The benefit is that he gets the best of both worlds…an

extremely easy to turn board that also flies in trim because it has no rocker.

and

Quote:

The last generation of Greenough spoons has NO flex running down the

center line. In fact, the thickest part of the center spine was at the trailing edge of

the fin. What he discovered was that getting the corners to bend up in a turn are what’s

paramount. By corners bending up, I mean inches of flex, not 1/4" or 1/2" like most

glass

spoons. The corners have to get out of the way in a turn with virtually no effort. The

rest of the tail is so stiff, that it compensates for the soft flex. Believe me, it

works. The bend in the corners should lead the board into a turn, not merely respond to

the rider pushing on it. The rest of the board provides the drive.

and

Quote:

What about flex over all does the board flex any in thru the middle. Even > a

little???>>> I would think it does a bit… No, there’s no linear flex, due to the

structure of the foam rails and the thick spine running from the mid point through the

back of the fin, which is only 3.5" up from the tail. The two areas that bend are the

twist, which is very soft, and the corners, which are also very soft. The twist and the

corners bending allow the board to assume the shape of the wave, and give way even

further in a turn. Once you get the hang of letting the forward third of the rail drive

the board, it all makes perfect sense.

I was looking at a boat a friend of mine races, an F! tunnel boat. With the concave bottom, chines

and runners I think the edge board is actually a triplane tunnel-hull flexspoon kneeboard that uses the

‘tunnel’ and flex to achieve lift and speed and the twist and flex for variable rocker and turning. The

‘runners’ were originally foiled wood between 1/2 and 1" tall and glued to the bottom. Later replaced with

clear plastic or Lexan ‘L’ shaped moulding when they broke off. The wooden runners added stiifness and

tremendous lift which the plastic/Lexan did not.

Grab wave with right hand to create a pivot point(like grabbing and swinging around

a pole), lean and bury rail and tail, pull left rail with left hand to really twist it.

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