5-fin Bonzer placement - LOST! Also, funny pro-glasser story, related

General Discussion
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I’ve got a Billy Hamilton 7-6 “Missing Link” (5-fin big boy Bonzer) that I like, but it’s only good from HH+2 up.  Under that, it just feels like a bad  mid-sized longboard.  HH+2 & up, though, it loosens up and feels like surfing a very predictable shortboard, except that it goes much, much faster, taking a high line.  Billy H said he likes this type of board because it has a fifth gear – something unlike any other board I’ve ever had.  However, in anything under HH+1 or HH+2, that never comes into play, and the board just feels gigantic under my feet.  It feels so good in juicier waves, though – and does so unusually well in a range of conditions (including choppy slop) – that I want to make two “step down” versions, one for small waves (6’ 3") and one for shoulder high to head high.

My problem is that I’m totally confused as to where to put the side runners (and the channels – there are two – which relate to fin toe because the runners are mounted on each side of the channels).  Partly my confusion’s due to a funny glassing mishap – I had the Hamilton glassed by a local pro factory, and they got the 28 degrees (what Billy H told me to use) right, but they put the bigger runners in front.  Humorous.  The board still works well, as above, but I do wonder if the runner placement being reversed is related to the board having relatively poor flat water paddle for the volume/length, and my best center fin placement being well forward of what I’ve seen recommended (6 1/8" for the True Ames 6.0" center is what’s working best for most conditions).

Does any one have a good rec for how to lay out the runners (distance from tail, distance from rail apex, how much toe) if I’m using 28 degrees cant?  Again, this is for boards of 6’ 3" length, and 6’ 8" length.  If it makes a difference, both are about 3.25" thick; the 6’ 8" is 21.25" wide and the 6’ 3" is 21.5" wide.

I can get the channels from that.

I’m partly puzzled because when I measure the original Hamilton, the numbers I get are a little weird, and of course the fronts and rears are reversed.  The numbers on the original (wrongly installed) are:

Fronts:  fin base 5 3/8"; rear edges 15 1/2" from tail, 1 1/8" from rail apex, 1/2" toe

Rears:  fin base 4 3/4"; rear edges 11" from tail, 1 1/4" from rail apex, 1/4" toe

(1) of course these are, again, with the fins wrongly installed (in reverse)

(2) Seems like an excessive amount of toe on the fronts?

I can post more info (or even share the shape3d mock-up files of my tweaked boards) if necessary…

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FWIW, I’ve done my best to locate this info via archives & Google.  Just have not found anything yet that seems dependable.

These are the two diagrams (below) that’ve come up on Google searches, and they contradict each other as well as other recs in the archives – while also being very different from the Hamilton “Missing Link”'s layout, even if you correct for the glasser mis-mounting the side runners.

 

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Hmmm…I hear crickets…

I can simplify:

(1) What is the modern concensus, or what’s worked for you, as far as distances for the runners from the rail apex?

(2) How much space is there supposed to be, vertically, between the backs of the front (smaller) runners & the fronts of the trailing (larger) runners?

(3)  What would the placement for a 6.0" trailer likely be for a 6’ 8" bonzer (not stubbed), and a 6’ 3" (stubbed)?

(4)  What would the toe-in likely be for the runners on a 6’ 8" and stubbed 6’ 3"?  What would likely be too much (slow, plowing water)?  What would likely be too little (stiff, tracky)?

I guess all of the original post was an effort to explain in particular why #3 isn’t just answered by the center fin charts on the Campbell Bros site…but also why I don’t trust (and can’t actually get) any of the other answers that would normally come from measuring the original board.

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The bottom layout seems to look the closest to the Campbell Brothers Layout .  The  side Fins on Billy Hamiltons site look big to my eye. Then again he is doing boards for Hawaii.  I also have heard that the angle is about 20 degrees . But who am I to argue with  Bill Hamilton?   I would have your glasser re-do that set up the way it should be Also minor changes in the fore -aft placement of the center fin makes a big big Differance
what size center fin are you using?

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Thanks artz.  Center fin size is 6.0", a stock set (with glass-on runners) from True Ames (at Bill’s suggestion) – I think he might have actually phoned the order in for me, can’t remember for sure.

Yes:  Bill’s rec was definitely 28 degrees, and he said he got his layout numbers from the Campbell Brothers.  I did read somewhere, though, that one of the Campbell Brothers said most of their clients seem to prefer 18 or 14 degrees (I think it was 18).  I’m happy with how the Hamilton rides in the conditions it was made for (despite the runners being reverse-order), so I plan to stick with 28.

It was funny watching him make the board for me.  He was here in SC working on some pretty well known redwood board projects at John Mel’s bays.  A bud and I were fortunate to watch him work, and hired him to make us boards so we could watch him shape.  On the day he made mine, I brought some boards I’d made so he could see exactly what I was riding when I told him how they worked for me.  I wanted a step-up, the only spot in my quiver I haven’t been able to satisfy with a self-shaped board.  I also showed him a short clip of me surfing Sewer Peak, here.  He changed the blank he’d chosen after that and told me, “I know what to make you.  I’m gonna make you the board you need.”  I trusted him to choose all the dimensions.  The whole time he was making it, I was thinking, Jeez, that’s a lot of foam…  When he was done, I thought, in exactly these words:  “Oh…you made a board for a big Hawaiian gorilla uncle.  Oh…that’s ME…”

The board he made does, I think, exactly what he intended it to do for me, in the waves I asked for it to match; it’s really, really good in overhead surf, and in both better and worse conditions.  It just is a different board in waves under that size, thus the step-downs I have planned.

Also:  yes:  the Campbell brothers vertical spacing on the 5-fin looks like it’s about the same as Hamilton’s – which is significantly NOT like one of the layouts I linked above.  I guess I can probably take the distances from the tail off the runners as they are, since the install, though backwards, is probably on the shapers’ dots Bill made; the center fin’s best position does also line up pretty close to the usual recommended spot, with the rears of the rears in line horizontally with the front of the center fin base.  I do still wonder about distance from the rail for the rears of the runners and the amount of toe, & am dubious about taking those numbers off the Hamilton 7-6.

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Did you see Yorky’s bonzer thread?
I got my Bonzer 5 placements from that thread iirc

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Thanks, chrisp - I hadn’t seen the Yorky or Shipman threads, or had only seen some of them that didn’t contain the bits of info I found (summarized below for easy ref).  I’m still reading but basically here’s what I found in them so far:

  1. two threads confirm 1/2" overlap between runners (one poster passes that along, crediting Moonlight Glassing for the info – they were/are glassing Campbell Bros boards), validating another mention of that number. OTOH on the Yorky thread (linked below) reverb (Swaylock’s user/poster, not the sound) argues against that overlap, while others confirm it’s on all the Campbell Bros boards.  Yorky (high level surfer) used Campbell overlap, 20 degrees (I may have this wrong…my notes are on Yahoo mail which is down right now), & was eventually thrilled with overall board results.

  2. 18 degree cant is mentioned a couple of times, which makes me think maybe I was too sure about 28 degrees being what Bill told me…  My Hamilton works well (at least to me) in sloppier conditions, if swell size/speed is big enough, and it’s got the runners at 28, so I’ll probably stick with that (just in case it’s helping with how the board works in sloppy conditions, though it may also be related to the bottom concaves being milder than I see in most bonzer pics), especially since the Hamilton isn’t close to being too loose up to the sizes I surf (I stop at double overhead, for the most part), when the back fin is far enough back to get the amount of drive (and balance of slide) I prefer.

  3. 1.5" off rail apex is kind of confirmed through silence when the second diagram I posted above is linked/posted in a thread, but only via its not being contradicted or commented upon – it’s not confirmed, but it’s not picked out as wrong.  It looks like this photo of johnmellor’s 7-6 x 20.5" Hamilton – very similar to mine, but not as gorilla sized (Mellor’s board is the same length as mine, though narrower) – confirms that at least Hamilton’s set-ups appear to be closer to 1.5" off the rail apex, rather than less.  http://www.swaylocks.com/sites/default/files/Hamilton_Hawaiian_Guns3.jpg

4)  Still puzzled as to what to do about distance from the tail**, **based on Yorky’s results, for stubbier boards of 6’ 8" and 6’ 3".  Yorky took his tail distance (10.5") off the johnmellor pic above, but Yorky’s shape was 5’ 11" whereas JM’s was 7’ 6".  My Hamilton, more recent than Yorky’s, has the trailer edges at 11".  I’m downsizing to 6’ 8" and a stubbed out 6’ 3".

5)  Still puzzled as to toe for the runners and channels – I know Bill mapped out via fin marks and a rocker stick running out to the nose (because I held the rocker stick where he asked me to while he made his marks).  I’d rather do it with the plastic shaper’s ruler/sheet, just because it’s so much handier.  Doesn’t 1/2" for the toe of the front runner seem a lot for a 7’ 6"?  HPSB fronts are normally 1/8-1/4 these days – pretty much almost every CI and Lost seems to measure out at 1/4 for the fronts… Is toe for the front runners on a Campbell Bros bonzer apt to normally measure out at nearly twice that?

 

Overall:  I guess at this point for CB layout 1.5" inset & 18 degrees are fairly established (with variance in cant according to rider request), but I wonder if my 6.125" for the center fin mark for the 7’ 6" board suggests a certain mark for 6’ 8" and for 6’ 3"; center fin location and toe will of course round out the layout.

Summarizing for easy reference (now and for future archive searchers):  these are the most relevant threads I’ve found so far (linking for people who hit this thread through searches in the future):

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/time-to-shape-my-bonzer (Yorky thread - haven’t finished reading it yet, gotta go surf before the gromming hour)

http://www.swaylocks.com/groups/bonzer-gun?page=2

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/bonzer-gun (mentions Moonlight & 1/2" overlap)

One interesting aside, re bottoms and channels:  http://www.swaylocks.com/groups/5-fins

That last link shows the same basic channel/fin idea as my Hamilton, except that Bill’s channels don’t carry through the rail line – instead they stop just before it, and along it, such that the speed line isn’t interrupted.   I don’t know why this is, but I do remember it being intentional.  Bill’s bottom concaves are way, way less pronounced on my board than on the ones I see in all the threads.

 

 

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For what it’s worth… I’m just finishing up only my second bonzer but this placement worked great on the first one. Its testing grounds are some of the same as yours. 

2448×3264 1.46 MB

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Thanks, Stayrelaxed.  I’m on a PC connected to a projector that renders the paper diagram illegible.

1)  What’s the length of your board?

  1. What’s the distance from the tail to the rear base of the trailers?  (I think it says 11"?)

  2. Is your toe for the fronts larger than 3/8", if you extend the line of the fronts up to 4.5"?

4)  What’s the cant in the front fins and how do you feel about the board when you put it on the heelside rail?

The biggest two things I’m puzzling over at this point are cant & distance from tail (for big boy boards of 6-3 & 6-8).  I’ve made my peace with 1.5" off the apex for the fronts, but am still sorting through input for vertical position, toe, & cant.  It looks from the photo like you’re more in the 20+ degrees range…

Definitely it’s a different problem, rockerwise, making bonzers for the east side, but I’m struggling/puzzling the most over runner cant/position in terms of getting a good planing speed when the board is flat, and getting a good heelside feel when cutting back if (usually not that hollow, but occasionally well-shaped) waves are under HH+2, for the boardsizes I mention, rider of 205-210 lbs).

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6’4 speed egg

Rears are 11 up from tail fronts are 16 that give them 3/8"ish overlap

Mine are toed the same as  Bonzer 5 layout diagram you posted earlier

Front and rears have the same cant @ 18 degrees 

Mine was pretty flat too & It went well in anything punchy. It would ride tight to the face in the barrel. I surfed it north of town a lot. I didn’t love it in flatter faced waves. Felt stiff like you described. Pain in the ass to sand near the fins and easy to burn through the glass around the concaves

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks, Stayrelaxed.  If you get a chance, it’d help greatly to know how the toe-in of the fronts measures out when measured the lazy way (based on distance of fin front edge & rear edge from stringer).  Bill set the fin lines based on the nose, on the 7-6, but it came out to 1/2" measured that lazy way & it seems like a lot; I’d never do that for the fronts on a thruster or quad.  I’m wondering if I’ll regret it if I set them that way & reduce from 1/2" (as on the Hamilton) in favor of 3/8", maybe end up with even more stiffness & regret it…

Sidetrack:  did I meet you at a spot North of town, the one with a long walk through brussel sprout fields, up on the cliff after a surf this last year?  I met someone on the lighter bodyweight side, not white, probably 175 lbs or less (maybe closer to 150 or 160), surfing a blue bonzer well on the middle (not most outside) peak on a day that was funsized.  You probably know who I’m talking about if not.  I remember the bonzer as solid blue on the bottom, glass-on fins, without very noticeable channels.  I was with a buddy & probably had a self-shaped board, but might also have actually had the Hamilton with me that day.

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And yeah:  I’ve glassed all but two of my own boards (out of about 30), but I probably won’t glass the bonzers I want to make because I’ve generally done poorly glassing channels & the pro glasser (mentioned above) does such a good job (including the sanding)…other than putting those fins in backward (which I look at as my fault for not being more on top of things).

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On a 5’9" -  Rears 10 3/4" Up, Fronts 16" Up (NO OVERLAP) this makes it not as stiff and I love it!  Both fins 1 3/8" in from the rail apex. 18 degrees cant.  1/4" toe in on a 4.5" long segment.  Thank me later.