6'10" Hull project (carbon vac bag eps/flex experiment)

Through lots of hairbrained thoughts, two hour long talks over pepperoni and garlic pizza, countless emails and a few sleepless nights, I put together what I think is a cool board…The idea itself went through probably 5 different stages and morphed in my brain for the past two years or so, and only has seemed like a possibility since I built my first flex spoon a few months ago…

Basically an elongated velo style template. Then, take the foam distribution of a Flex Spoon (where the rails contain the volume and act, depending on how they are foiled, as torsion bars to control flex), and add a neutrally shaped volume to the center of the board, allowing the whole board to twist, nose to tail, like a Spoon. The volume of foam in the center does add stiffness, but I believe that is a good thing; when you’re on a 5’ kneeboard, your center of gravity is very low and you don’t have much leverage, therefore the flex should be quite soft. When you’ve got 6’10 of board, and the load is applied to one specific region of the board (under your feet), the flex should be much stiffer so as not to wash out when you give it some juice.

Its a 2lb EPS core, with varied layers of 6oz E, 6.2 oz Carbon twill, 9 oz S-glass, and Epoxy resin…here’s the layering in the tail under the deck lam:

deck shape after bottom lam:


This board is by NO means perfect in terms of build, this is the first time I’ve used the full eps/carbon/vacbag trifecta, it was intense, mind numbingly complicated, and incredibly wonderful…

most interesting. somewhat like one of greenoughs windsurf boards…

Wow, def looking forward on this build.

Every time you build something cool like this, I get an email from a buddy wanting one, I tell him to go to the source cuz you got skills!

very nice surferguy!

seems like you really pulled it off. the finished product looks clean.

way to think out of the box...

have you ridden it yet?

that thing is badass

leaving for a pumping sand bottom point in an hour at low tide w/a bunch of the guys!!

beyond excited

Right on…go ride it @ Skunks.

btw-it wasn’t pumping…it wasn’t even clean…but there sure were a “bunch of the guys” clogging the place up as usual…

ya it sucked…the 3 of us “bunch” moved on and thanked my buddy for his report…blah.

went back to town and found some fun ones though!!

You’re teasing us, right?  Have you surfed it yet or not?  If so, inquiring minds want to know.  

I like it! We are going to do some hull-type stuff in Coil Construction whenever we get around to it... 

Welcome to our world. The bagging gets easier after the first few thousand boards.

 

easternpacific approved? If not, then shame on you sir…shame on you.

welp, she got surfed and im saddened to report that 1, the board buckled at the front of the fin box where i air-headedly ended the heaviest layer of glass, creating a pretty natural creasing spot. and 2, the board was overglassed and felt too stiff…it took a pretty good sand sucker on the inside and paid the price, which is fine with me because i’d rather a semi-failed experiment be sacrificed to the waves than sit in my shop forever.

I say semi-failed because Im definitely not giving up on the idea, the next version is already in the works and i’ll be making a thread or updating this one with that board as it comes along in a couple weeks.

I think the build method is totally valid and the flex felt right in terms of dynamic, but was just too stiff…the plan on the next one is to glass is less than half as heavy as this one (this board only weighs 6.5lbs by the way!). less foam will be in the nose to balance out the paddling/floatation imbalance, and the new board will be somewhere around 5’8 or so, we’ll see!

very excited to keep going with this and see if I cant overcome the downfalls of the first!

Ryan , Liddle got some carbonfiber  from hexel and made a board in  the mid 70s I think , It sucked, to stiff . Another one was Tony Masial , Liddle and Shapes and Hulls glasser and underground hull master, made one carbon flextail, we all rode it, then burned it on eastbeach. Also the concave deck thing with super thin rails + carbon = drop in , bank over your turn on the rail and it stays on rail, to stiff. I did like Alan Gibbons board he posted last week, those materials might be better for those type of boards, IMO.

Ryan…when it comes to pools…ok…probably good advice available…but otherwise???

We could not get Proneman out of our booth at Sacred Craft, I called security but he yelled at them and they got scared and backed off.

Ya gotta break some eggs to make an ........

Carbon is at the top of the list for stiffness, one of the reasons we use it sparingly, and always in combo (or hybrid) with other things. Did you see the carbon/spectra board I posted on here a couple of years ago?

In a lot of composite applications, that stiffness is very desirable. I know some guys who build small fast airplanes (4-6 seaters) almost completely carbon and vinylester. The low specific gravity of carbon lets them do a thick laminate structure (thickness = even more stiffness) at the least possible weight in a ''never-fail'' structure. Best-known use of this approach is race car ''tubs'' and/or seats, but these parts are usually autoclaved.

But I digress.... Back to the hulling!

 

 

Great experiment. Thanks for sharing your experiences/observations … and, hopefully you’ll continue to do so.

But…

I’m curious, if you had to narrow it down, just as an exercise, where do you see the level of flex that you appear to be after as being or becoming important. If possible, bring it down right to the manuvre level, e.g. a tight trim situation, like being in the tube, or perhaps during a big bottom turn, or during a extended curvy turn, or during a shorter high power turn, or any one of a multitude of manuvres. 

I would like to understand what sparked and maintains your interest. I realize others have persued this level of flex, but I’m interested in what you had in mind.

For me, ideas often start with a specific visualization of some specific event etc. If that was the case for you, I’d be interested to know what that initial or continuing visualization was or is.

Of course you could have come at this from a completely different direction, if so could you summarize that.

kc

after riding my kneeboard a bit, the projection is so outrageous im just kinda itching to get something like that form a stand up board…i’ve done glas panel tails that work great and give good snap and drive, but its usually just a little push, i want a massive push…

i envisioned a big powerful bottom turn, loading and twisting the board, then letting off and it springing you down the line releasing all of the stored energy…but stiff enough to both provide that kind of drive and to stay solid in trim and keep a flat rocker. so you’d have a flat rocker in trim, and the more you push on it the more you bend it the more it pushes back at you…having the board bend to match the face of the wave is always going to be the best way to get the most speed from a wave; a twin fish works great on a flat faced wave because the template matches the wave shape…put more curve in the waves face and you’re not meshing well anymore, they still go great but its not the best fit or most efficient. so a variable template and rocker would produce, hopefully, a more efficient surfboard.

Thanks. I think I get it.

You see flex, beyond that which is usually available in the more traditional builds, as

  1. a way to store then recover elastic energy

    </li><li><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">a way to implement a
    variable-rocker
    
  2. and possibly even a way to implement a variable-plane-shape (or template)

and you've made why you see the benefits for these pretty clear.

 

The latter two, tend to speak to the level of strain, or deformation, pliability if you like, more than the first. That is, you could likely tap the benefits of storing/recovery of elastic energy with a minimal of strain (deformation).

Perhaps Mike (Coil) will jump in here, hopefully without having to reveal to many proprietary secrets, but I believe their approach -i.e. a unique combination of materials and structure, (construction technique included) has allowed Coil to address the storage/recovery energy issue to some degree, more so than the pliability issue. (Perhaps Mike will clarify.)

I’m also inclined to believe that,
given Coil’s approach, they have tried to match the response
characteristics of their builds with to that of the rider (or average
rider), but again I wouldn’t know for sure. (Coil has not made to the
Northeastern US is any big way yet, but perhaps things will change
after this year’s US Florida expo.)

Matching the response characteristics, or even optimizing them with respect to those of the rider is likely to be an important design issue – these kinds of concerns tend to make a more user friend board. Pogo-stick design, which is almost solely about energy storage and recovery, is actually not a bad example. Getting just the right spring stiffness and level of strain required, is important. Too much strain (deformation) and it just feels wrong.

But energy storage/recovery isn't the issue with respect to the second and third applications. Or, at least I wouldn't think you'd want it to be. It seems to more about pliability. (But I could be wrong about that.)

So, at least I believe, you've got a trade-off problem. That is, the higher level of strain [deformation] that will generally be required to produce the sufficient level of deformation to actually conform to a given wave face, where energy storage/recovery is not the issue versus an optimal level of response (strain) when energy storage/recovery is. The applications do overlap, but they are different. The former is tends to be far more about deformation -i.e. pliability, the latter far more about energy storage/recovery, or stiffness.

Or it's as if you would like to build a structure whose stiffness is under the control of the rider - relatively high for energy storage and recovery, and relatively low for when pliability is required.

Pliability applications would seem to have been more or less successfully addressed for non-stand-up forms of surfing -i.e. spoons, boogie boards, surf-mats, etc. The energy storage/recovery, possibly addressed in stand-up surfing by applications like we're seeing in Coil products. But the two have yet to successfully come together in a stand-up surfboard.

That's a nice challenge, and your approach is interesting.

My apologies for my musing about your challenge. After wading through the marketing hype, picking each others brains, even if it's just clarifying a problem, at least the last time I checked, is a large part of what Swaylocks is about, so I don't feel too bad and hopefully you won't either.

kc