the other day i got a mislabel on a floor epoxy due to not having any fillers and it was out. still cured tho . but temperature stability was out the window. epoxy seems to retain its adhesive qaulitys even if you dont get a full cure. you can get a really flexible composite board by using a infusion resin on inside lams thats stay flexible unless you post cure it. dont laugh sometimes breaking rules gets valuable results. the board was majic
also, is it possible to mix RR CE and RR 2000 epoxy? say like laminate with CE and hotcoat with 2000?? thanks
I’m a big proponent of the scale method. Volume works great until you need to do very small batches, like 6 grams for a small leash cup.
I also found that the cheap hardware store graduated cups can be pretty off from one cup to another. The auto paint store ones are the way to go if need accuracy for small batches.
Because I use the FH and the RR together for different applications I made a table for each resin. Just took the time to sit down with a calculator and start with 1 and went to 30. Each resin has a different mixing ratio and as the amounts increase the margin for error also increases. I posted it at the table that I mix my resin at so I don’t need to do any math for a mix. I wish I had done it on my computer so I could post it for all to use, but I just wrote it on a piece of paper and used a highlighter to separate the rows. It has made mixing very simple.
Mark your containers on the cap and the side of the container in bold letters. It may sound stupid but try and laminate a board with hardender mixed with hardener. Not having too many containters laying around within reach as well as focusing on what the hell your doing can be your friend.
I put my scale in a gallon zip lock bag. Easy to read the numbers and push the buttons without ruining your scale.
When I mix pigment into the resin first I tare the scale with the stick in the cup then add hardener. No need to clean the stick off then get it dirty again just to mix in the hardener.
Baby medicine droppers are usually in cc’s and tsps, perfect for Add. F. The xylene screws up the plungers in the syringes.
I transfer the Add. F into a glass mason jar, you’d be surprised at how high a temp the wax settles out of solution at. If you need to warm it up you can see what is going on. Also glass doesn’t rust.
I’ve really been wanting to get a good set of scales,unfortunately $$ is tight,I’m hoping the ones from harbor freight are good and accurate…
We did the tests yours vs ours. We used four of ours and your one. You can in forth out of the five. You need to get the facts before you spread untruths.
I agree, lets get back to how to.
Greg, for along time you put your resin forth as better than all comers. how about you do publish some tests of your products with completly repeatable tests that anyone can do and try on any brand they wish. no name calling or bagging any other stuff just pure simple science tests… that goes for all of you… im not picking on you specifcly greg. your just the loudest voice of epoxy on this site.
then we can all see the facts. i think thats the best way to sort out this childlike my poo is smellier than your poo debate!
" long live the well made PU "
Yes. I do it all the time when I don’t have enough CE. But for best results, you want to do both with the CE. And you do want to laminate with the CE, because you sand off most of the hotcoat, of course.
Hey Greg,
just used epoxy for the first time and decided that I’d go with RR as there seemed to be so much info available here on it. Just to say really that I won’t bother trying any other, as once I’d got to using it as specified rather than experimenting wit different lay-up methods (and fkn the deck right up) I was really impressed with it, works easy, water clear, sands well (even without the F), mixes perfectly by volume, no blush, and levels nicely. Oh and it doesn’t seem to want to kill me either which is a plus.
I’m sure the Greenroom stuff is great too but, I like what I know.
Cheers
Jase
High Noon at the OK Corall…
Where is the Data?
Lets get back to the facts!
Ok back to the tips…
What is everyone using to seal sanded epoxy boards and what are you using to compound, polish, and seal polished boards?
I’ve been using a Meguires 3 step compound, polish and wax but it’s an automotive product. Wondering if there’s anything better out there.
I have the same question. I’ve also picked up a quart of board polishing compound from www.fiberglasssupply.com Will let you know how works this weekend.
BTW- Rick, your art is beautiful. It’s very bright, clean and a nice combo of tropical urban.
I’m not a chemist or composites guru and I only build two or three boards a year, so all the Add.F/ X-55 stoichiometric stuff is over my head . I’ve been using AeroMarine 300/21 for my laminations. It is a bit of a pain to work with since it is very low viscosity and doesn’t gel quickly. I have to babysit the laps for about an hour. I don’t think I could go into production with it since the shortest flip time I’ve been able to get was 8 hours with heat. 12 hours at room temp. It is very clear though. Not sure about the UV stability either, it says it’s UV resistant but needs to be coated for long term outdoor exposure. Also goes through a lot of paper until it’s setup for a week. But at $75 for a gallon and a half, I can wait to flip.
The last two I’ve done I sanded the fill coat to 320 then laid down 4 coats of Varathane Diamond Spar. Sand that to 600 wet then with the buffer - Turtle wax premium rubbing compound, Turtle wax polishing compound, Mequiars gold class carnuba. The rubbing compound says it’s for post 1500 but it seems to polish out 600 fine with the buffer, so I haven’t bothered to sand to 1500. The Varathane flows out nice, but it needs three full days to setup before you polish.
Tips - Well, there may be others with similar mind sets to mine out there (In large part, fine “show room” finish, is just that… for the show room.) How to work with epoxy in the most basic way - too get my board laminated and ready to ride. Well after all this, I feel like just letting it go…
My tip is simply this - If you are not overly concerned, don’t sweat the “fine finish.” There’s been plenty written claiming a sanded finish, @ 320 grit, is the fastest anyway, and, I’d argue, you can get it done in two main glue steps: lam and finish.
The board I just finished: Nice tight lam (I’m back into squeegee’s… for now. Ha!) sanded the lam/laps - caps as needed - pretty minimal. Gave it a “finish” coat and, other than a quick once over w/a 3m “fine” pad, called it good. Rode it for the first time last night… work as well as expected (Which was great, as my expectations were high hopes… Ha!)
Thanks Sr Pato!
I agree that sanded finish really is the way to go for most boards, but I just can’t help wanting to do a polish from time to time. There’s something about a shiney resin swirl that draws me in like a kid in a candy shop. On boards with color I like to at least go to 600 even if I don’t polish. On a white board I will go to 320 but usually I go to 400. When I paint a board with the paint pens I can’t go past 400. I get adhesion issues with the paint on 600. 320 - 400 seems to be the best surface.
Is anyone using a speed finish on epoxy? What are you using?
I’ve sprayed with acrylic clear coat as a speed finish. Originally this was how I sealed the paint pen work on the board, but I liked the feel of the matte finish so I’ve tried both the matte and the glossy. They do a decent job covering those nasty burns.
I’ve used spray too - Heck, I used a little on the bottom nose of the latest board, as the “finish” coat didn’t quite fill the 6oz weave 100%, so I sprayed on a some instant stuff, acrylic or laqure(sp?)??? I don’t know off the top of my head, but I’ve used it for years for ding repair finish - as you can read, I’m often a minimalist.
Edit/addition Full disclosure: I even use some “Surfwax” for the bottom of your board… a lot like real thick/drying car wax… smells good, and make a nice shiny smooth finish… for fun… I can’t get enough of hand rubbing my board… till I have… Then I’m done - Ha!
Any chance of some more info on your spray? Sounds like a good fix for small things if you know what I mean.
I just use the quick dry outdoor stuff, but, as someone may point out - I’d test to see if it melts eps (I haven’t yet…) I just make sure to only use it like I said - as a final finish/touch up. I sprayed some in an old lid w/left overs of glue and filler from setting the fin boxes, set at an angle - to make a tiny puddle - and used a q-tip/cotton swab (In case you guys don’t have “Q-Tips” down under.) to paint the lips of my fin boxes… “Looking gooood.”
I got into the “instant dry” lacquer when I wanted to ride my board “right now” after a ding repair… heck, as I’ve said, minimalist… Ha! Old 100 grit and some spray… good to go!
Well I’ll contribute. Sorry if this is pretty basic for some of you, but hopefully it will help someone. Here’s my tips for doing a tri-color swirl with epoxy to maintain color separation. First off you’ve got to use a lot more than you normally use, easily double your normal lam volume. Mix your clear in one large graduated cup. Pour out 1/4 of your clear into a paper cup. Pour out another 1/4 into another paper cup. Mix your base color in the graduated cup containing 1/2 the original resin. Mix your other colors in the 2 paper cups. Pour some of the base color into another large cup. Gently pour some of both colors into the same cup. You can use your mixing stick to make sure the pour doesn’t hit the surface of the base color to hard and mix. Next pour another layer of the base color and repeat the layers of swirl colors. Continue until you’ve used up all your resin. Do not mix. With poly at this point you might take your mixing stick and dip it a few times, but with epoxy that will mix and muddy your colors. So now gently pour out your resin trying to cover as much area as possible. The less you have to move with your squeegee the better. You can be creative with your pour to get different patterns. Once you’ve poured out your resin you have to gently spread it out. Don’t drag the squeegee on the cloth while spreading the resin. Try to keep it above the cloth while still pushing the resin. For me this has helped to spread without muddying. Once you’ve covered the board you can continue with your normal lam. With RR I use less additive F in my fillcoat for tints and colored boards. I’ll use the lam amount in the fillcoat, or I’ll use none at all in the fillcoat and the lam amount in my gloss coat. This helps reduce the foamy cloudiness. I could be wrong, but the foamy cloudiness seems directly related to the F. Coats done without F are almost crystal clear but gum up when sanding and fisheye. So it’s a double edged sword. Any other tips for reducing cloudiness would be greatly appreciated.
I have been using RR CE because I can drive 30 minutes to Greenlight and buy some from Brian when I run out. I really like threads like this when people share their knowledge. I think sometimes people hold back because they don’t want others to learn so they feel they have an advantage. Being an east coaster I don’t exactly have a shaper/glasser on every corner to meet and learn from so this site and my friends are it. Let’s keep this about helping people build better boards.
Here’s a pic an epoxy swirl I did.
You can mix any of the resins from our project 21 system together. Mix ratios are all 2 to 1 and are designed for those hardeners. Using different resins and hardeners for different applications is something that’s done all the time. Common practice.
We sell 16 different resins, eight on the Project 21 side and six on the Comp Pro side and then there are two others that are specialty outside the realm of those. We also have eight different hardeners. Most of the surfboard manufacturers use more than one resin and almost all use more than one hardener. When you add the additives there are a myriad of choices which may seem confusing but the choices are for the pro guys.
If your building at home generally you’ll use just a few of the choices since little differences in the way the stuff kicks or sands or hot coats don’t really effect things that much. 2000 or CE resin and some either fast or slow hardener and a bit of additive F is all you need. All you’ll ever need. But in production a sander who’s saving 5 or 10 minutes a board is awefully stoked that his day got an hour or two shorter because of a tweek the hot coater made just by using a different resin. Likewise the hot coater or laminator is stoked to go home an hour earlier because they shot a bit of X-55 into the laminates or hot coats. Production is wayyyy different than building just a few for yourself.
Dave, Thanks for the question. We have published our technical data sheets on our website along with info on post curing and some other tid bits. So that stuff is there. We’ve also done plenty of testing and have had independant tests done as well on pretty much all aspects of the resins to make sure we are walking the walk not just talking the talk.
Before we market a product we have a number of criteria we have to have. The critera is very broad and takes in lots of aspects surfboard builders don’t think of until they try something else and then realise why we do certain things the way we do them. To give you the best example of what I mean by criteria here are some
Excellent strength charateristics
Clarity
Color stability
Low vapor
Low toxicity
Non blushing
Excellent wet out
Stays where it’s put
Good gloss and flow
Flexability without failure
Production friendly
Good yield charateristics
Excellent chemical resistance (this doesn’t matter with boards but we sell beyond just surfboard guys)
Price/cost … if it can be sold … there’s some stuff out there that is so cool. But you couldn’t/wouldn’t buy it for a surfboard
Ect. (that’s all the ones I could think of off the top of my head but there are some more)
These criteria are things we’ve done for many years and many of them come originally from what surfboard builders have demanded for decades, not just in epoxies but in all resins. Others of these are ones we’ve been able to add over the years to make workability better and easier.
What you guys probably don’t know is that surfboard epoxies are the very best epoxy systems on the market today. Better than marine, aerospace, transportation, or archetectural. Surprising isn’t it? And you pay less than any of those guys. Part of it is the crash and burn nature of surfboards themselves … we get to test things right in the marketplace … they don’t … can’t. Another is the freedom of the surfboard marketplace itself , small businesses , cottage businesses which are looking for top quality materials and are small enough to change quickly. These other industries are so hung up in regulation that they are hamstrung about change. They end up using the same product for decades and are forced into old systems when much better, newer tech is available.
Dave, hope this explains a bit.