I was reading one of the old threads that was talking about acetone, MEK (the solvent, not catalyst) etc. and some people were pretty vehement about the use of acetone. Loehr stated that “acetone has no place in a modern day factory”.
Then there were others talking about how lethal MEK was…which I am wondering how many people out there have experience with MEK solvent vs. acetone. If you read the back label on the MEKP (saw it at Home Depot) it states that it’s a solvent for resin when “less evaporation than acetone is desired”.
…does it clean as well? Obviously you want to cover your containers to reduce evaporation and to guard against flashpoint (make sure your storage box won’t burn)…GL was talking about throwing away brushes and disposable gloves but this is with epoxy. Which, maybe the landfills appreciate your business, but I prefer to keep brushes around for as long as I can. For instance, my good quality glossing brush never sits on its bristles…I hang it in a metal gallon can. There is a top for the can with a hole thru the brush handle and a pin to suspend it. The level of acetone is set at a height that doesn’t dissolve anything that hold the bristles to the brush. Those brushes last for a heck of a long time.
Given the above description of my glossing brush (which by the way, wouldn’t be a bad way to house your hotcoating brush if you use UV suncure resin) it seems like MEKP might be a good solvent to put the glossing brush in. IF it is as effective as acetone…or maybe you end up having to do a final rinse in acetone vs. the MEKP? Remember the pinkish red acetone aubstitute stuff that was around for awhile? Where did that stuff go? Isn’t that what Clark was using? The brushes felt sticky after you removed them, and they had to dry out (or, in the real world, a lot of us dipped them in acetone after flocking as much water/substitute as we could from them in order to boil off remaining H20 and to make a living and not have to have 300 brushes drying out).
If acetone and MEK are killing all of us…wherezzzz the substitute? Oh, someone mentioned lacquer thinner too…citing acetone is in it and that it works…but has less acetone. Where is the logic in that?
And if “acetone has no place in modern day production shops”, then what’s being used?
And for what it’s worth…someone thought the nitrile gloves were great versus vinyl…personally I think the nitrile disposables are crap (acetone dissolves them) whereas the really cheap latex gloves go on easy and don’t tear like paper and can handle acetone.
Who has reinvented the wheel and isn’t using the ‘demon’ acetone with their polyester jobs???
Note: MEKP was changed to read MEK…MEK is slow evaporating resin solvent whereas MEKP is (Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide…catalyst). Thanks to Pierpont Scott for catching this.
HUmmmm, Don’t know. But I do know this…I saw one of my long time buddys (that I haven’t seen in a long time) He’s 10 yers older than me so he’s mid 50 (name to be withheld). He’s been around acetone, resin, cat, all the stuff, for ever…ran a surfshop, shaped for a big name…all that bs. Never wore a mask, or if he did it was sporatic…My god is mostly brain dead now. I mean not certified veggie type, but just slow, slow thinking, slow reaction, slow driving (almost got into 3 accidents in one driving trip).
Really reminds me of another San Diego icon that does ding repair…but worse.
Acetone is the quite killer.
Good question: why not something safer…we can send a man to the moon, twice even.
Right on Plus One…this is a good contribution for people to seriously consider! If you don’t ask, you don’t get.
Rez Head is right about the retard stuff too.
Haven’t you ever noticed that people that work in plastics (and printing for that matter) tend toward lethargy (slow)?
A lot of the fumes I noticed were boil off (evaporation) of styrene while laminating or glossing. We had a squirrel cage that moved air thru pretty effectively in our lam room, and we wore respirators that were OSHA rated for resin, but when your pores are open (which is all the time), you inevitably get exposure. Skin is the largest organ the human body has. If people out there don’t want to buy the bigger respirators and cartridges, they can look into the lightweight masks that have charcoal liners in them. We used those too, and they were pretty cool. The only thing about the lightweight charcoal masks is you have to store them in zip lock baggies after using because the charcoal absorbs everything in the air and they get used up pretty darn quick unless you limit their exposure for the purpose of resin exposure.
Grant it, the resin now is far more less volatile than it was in the 1980’s. We went thru a period of adjustment as the EPA started to regulate resins. First in the boat industry than on to the surfboard resins. A lot of people don’t realize that Clark’s blanks were largely made of resin. It’s all plastics man, plastics. Grubby used to write letters to us about the vast “tank farms” that made resin and how Clark accounted for a tiny little amount of their business…
Although a lot of production shops are not using UV resin on a large scale basis, I like the fact that the resin goes inert so fast and that you can reduce waste and put the stuff collected away into an air tight storage area. The aprons underneath racks can be flashed with sun (if you have roll up doors) or UV lighting to render the resin spillage inert (hard plastic).
I’d think that the acetone substitute would be popular both economically and environmentally…why doesn’t Foam EZ, Fiberglass Hawaii, Home Depot, Lowes, and others offer it? This stuff could be safely shipped vs. acetone.
Do you know the cost of this stuff compared to acetone or MEKP?
FYI…I just went to their site and contacted them suggesting they contact surfboard supply companies and the like to market their product…also asked them where it is available near or in Santa Barbara.
I checked the CCP site…xcelent stuff. 10 to 1 mix ratio to save a buck, several different products to substitute fr acetone…boling point 212 degree Farenheit…flashpoint around 220 degrees…sewerable waste…cost efficiency…damn. What’re we doing?
Thanks for the info.
another case of: Open your mind, your ass will follow!
Howzit DeadShaper, Years ago on a mainland trip I got in touch with a company that made an acetone substitute and they invited me to their plant to check out their product. The thing that impressed me was that the EPA said it could even be poured down the drain with no bad affects to the environment. This was a nice thing to consider, but the problem was the stuff just didn't work as good as acetone especially for brushes. As for MEK solvent I think it may be even more toxic that acetone. As long as you take the proper precations when working with acetone it is the best choice for cleaning up resin. As for the dirty acetone store it in an empty resin container til your city trash company has a hazardous liquids pick up days or take it to a transfer station that takes them. I know that big companies that use acetone have to return the used stuff and they have to keep records to show what they bought and what is returned ( minus the evaporation variable). I ahve seen guys just pour it on the ground and say oh this is such a small amount it won't hurt, that's BS it will get into the ground water some time.Aloha,Kokua
Yeah, I’ve always been from the acetone works best just protect yourself school of thinking.
But these days I’m trying earnestly to thik green and also be cost effective. Especiallywhen everyone is paying $3 bucks for a gallon of gas. Bottom line is I’d rather put the money into the fun parts of the board (or toward S glass or whatever) instead of having it evaporating into nothingness.
Maybe the new substitutes are better now? I know we all went through the changes in resins back when. I recall housepainters were bumming out on the water based paints and finishes at first too.
Eventually the stuff got better…maybe the acetone substitutes have too. I’ll probably try some and come back to this thread with an update. Especially if it works well and the one site said the stuff is “sewerable”.
Growing pains.
I used some reclaimed acetone back around '87…better price…worked better than the pinkish red water based acetone substitute. I guess to each their own, eh? I seem to recall Beatty having an acetone recycle machine back at one point.
I haven’t done much glassing the last few years, but when I had my own glass shop I used the following method for brush cleaning. Four buckets; One for clean acetone, one for dirty acetone, one for lacquer thinner and one for paint thinner. I bought two gallon work pots with lids. I sat them in a row on the floor or a bench. I would rinse my white china bristle brushes in acetone. then rinse them in lacquer thinner and finally paint thinner, use a painters "spinner’ to sling them dry and then wrap them in a cover. I always kept two or three around and rotated their use. It’s not a good idea to use a brush that is wet with thinners as it might comtaminate you gloss or hotcoat. Also you have to be careful to use gloves that will resist lacquer thinner. I got long life and clean, soft brushes by using this method. The acetone bucket was always the first to go dirty, so I would pour it into a dirty bucket with a lid for storage and possible recycled uses. I kept lids on all buckets when they were not in use. Dirty solvents were stored in buckets with good lids. After awhile the solids settle and they can be pored off the top for re-use.
Thanks for your input…I’m sure some will look at this as labor intense or excessive, but in production we realize initial set ups can bring efficient and cost saving results as a whole.
kidney, liver and nerve damage when in blood. Birth defects and lowered fertility in males…
MEK = 2 butanone = C4H8O or CH3COC2H
Listed in Table II precursor under the United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances
Long term exposure: Kidney damage, birth defects, retardation, drowsiness, nerve damage, when inhaled in significant concentrations loss of consciousness and death occurs.
I don’t care how clean you want that brush to be. I will use disposable brushes, that won’t kill me.
Also, keep these products away from industrial peroxides (catalyst) and reactive amines (epoxy hardners) if you know what’s good for you.
The only place for acetone/MEK/MEKP is not near me…
Use clean epoxies, keep your brushes and rollers in the deep freezer and use disposables. Always wear protection. Anyone who says bah humbug to that has been doing this work too long and probably did more damage to themselves in the hippie days anyway… if you are younger and care about your health, heed the warnings…
Solvents have no place in a modern, evironmentally concious shop…
You’re not telling any of the guys posting on this thread anything they don’t already know about acetone. I ocassionally use epoxy and have used the methods you speak of. Nice that you have cautioned the youger guys who are new to these chemicals. I on the other hand am not going to tell anyone what has no place in a modern shop. All the established “modern” shops here in the US while making room for a percentage of epoxy work are still using Poly, acetone etc. It’s still legal and most of them continue to take necessary and prudent precautions in using these chemicals.
Although most of these Thermaclean products from CCP are great, most are not sold in California due to the VOC issues with the products, Acetone is not in the same category (kind of weird, nothing flashes off faster than acetone).
They do have Replaceatone, which is the same product Clark Foam used. Clark Foam was acetone free for years. Not an easy transition as none of these products work as well as acetone.