Aloha, I am a first time poster. I love this site and really thank you all for sharing. I just put up a youtube video on the test I just did on adding agribon to fiberglass to make it stronger. I got the idea to do the test on sways from the alt fabric discussiion. Agribon is super cheap and I had a bunch from the farm I run. It is white! you can buy 1500’ x10’ for $220 @ peacfull valley or tons of other places. I was way impressed with how strong it made the laminate. http://youtu.be/QpUGPimp5A0 …let me know what you think
That’s a good start. Maybe on your next testing, allow for weight of cloth. Its a given that more layers and weight would be stronger. So maybe try two layers of 4 oz fiberglass, against one layer of 4 oz fiberglass with 4 oz agribond. Keep the weights of cloth equal for different combinations. And also test for different orders of fabric in the layers. But you are off to a good start. Thanks for posting.
nice find
I think its similar to this bulker/surfacing veil from ACP Composites
http://www.acpsales.com/Aero-Veil.html
0.50/foot over 100’ so your find is way cheaper.
question though…
does it lam clear?
and is there bonding issues with polypropelene and resin?
I thought that was the ingredient in Blue Dow that caused the bonding issues?
mix this with the nylon mesh net that Huie showed us and maybe this can displace a 1/8" wood skin.
maybe…
poly pro veil/fiberglass/nylon web/fiberglass/polypro veil
bagged on as a synthetic sandwich skin instead of wood or HD foam
I can see a skin like that on the bottom and maybe a nylon/glass/exposed cork skin for the deck
Curious if in your test panels of multi layer fiberglass, if the orientation of the weave was staggered (one straight, one on bias)? If not, wondering if doing so would effect both elasticity before failure as well as tearing of cloth?
Thanks for posting
I think its called “frost blanket” over here in oz.
It might be worth using a kitchen scale to weigh each sample piece so you get to see weight differences.
Can you get your hands on Cerex to see what the differences are to that? If not - happy to post a small piece so you can continue your testing (though it will take a while to get to you…)
I will update with weights after i get scale… the fiberglass was 1,2,and 3 layers thick…the others were all 2 fiberglass layers with 1,2,4 layer agibon respectivly. Aloha
no it does not stay clear… it looks like frosted glass
I use same material on some deck board between fiberglass as a thin bulker. All those “cheap” old plastic fiber are from same chemical polymère familiy: PP,PET, PA6.6 (deposed mark nylon by Dupont, free now). They have near same mechanical properties: low stiffness, low strengh, high élongation to break, low weight. Because stiffness and strengh are same as most epoxy we use when you do a laminate with them you have same stiffness and elastic limit as plain epoxy of same dimension. I test it in industrial lab (it´s a part of my job) and i demonstrate it with formulas. Many search works on net show it too, that why in composit world those veil are sold as resin rich layer. As you test it in flexural, thickness give stiffness, they are lighter than glass so in sandwich like build at same weight skin is thicker so stiffer and stronger in flexural mode.
With énergétic dipersion formulas, you can see that those materials can improve thougness for low impact. But not in repetability way so if impact cut resin an glass laminate stay in one pièce because of high élongation to break of plastic fiber but it loose is stiffness/strengh. That´s why those material are classified as bulker and not as structural reinforcement in composit world. Those with microballon incerted in are well known and often use, coremat, soric, matline, spherecore etc…
sorry for my frenglish
I wonder if this is similar to some stuff I’ve seen at Home Depot labeled something like “Septic Fabric”. I can’t remember what it was called exactly, but it looked very similar to Cerex. In my hands it felt a bit weaker when stretched a bit (this is my very scientific testing on the fly). I couldn’t find anyone who could tell me what the stuff was or meaningful info to look up. Dirt cheap.
Curious to see how it looks when using tinted resin since it gives a cloudy look when clear. Does it look as good as a regular tinted patch? Or does it look like crap?
IMO, the whole point to resin tints and opaques is to retain the look of the weave - that’s what gives those colors the depth that the airbrushes lack. Different strokes, but if I want resin-based color I’m probably not going to screw around with doing it to a non-woven veil.
What I would hope to gain from using a plastic in the lam is not puncture or impact resistance so much as adding some resilience in flex and to inhibit the spread of cracking. Going resin-rich at the same thickness might do the same thing but it seems like you might be able to save some weight by replacing some of that resin with the plastic fibers.
Howzit Gdaddy,
That crack-prevention is in my mind the greatest potential benefit. It’s essentially a low-tech toughening agent. In the old days, they would add ground up rubber to resins to accomplish this same thing.
I was Goolging looking at plasticants for epoxy and came across references to palm oil and a couple other possibilities. At the moment I’m thinking the application might be as the intermediary layer in a composite sandwich.
When they do gelcoats some applications involve the use of a gauge to get the desired thickness. I could see laying down extra resin for that intermediary layer, marking it with indents to show the desired thickness and fairing it out until you get to that depth before adding the outer lamination. Using a layer of plastic cloth as the bulkier to acheive a similar (or similar) effect seems like the easier way, though.
Yup. Bulker (or micro-bulker), improved wetout, toughener, and probly less dense than the resin. win/win/win if used properly.
For LeMat, cause I reckon he’s already been there and done that with plastic layers in laminates:
Just to make sure I understand exactly what you’re saying on the subject, is Nylon 6,6 any different (at all) that “regular” nylon, or not?
If we want to add some plastic cloth in between inner and outer layers of fiberglass, is it better to use woven or non-woven; and does thickness matter beyond what it adds in bulking and stiffness?
Lastly, I found some nylon fabrics being sold with “pure” finish, apparently meaning no finish; as well as nylon being sold with calandered finish. If I was going to use a layer of plastic in lamination which do you think would adhere better or otherwise be preferable?
Fun stuff. It would be interesting to get some samples to massive_swell and have them tested on the ‘bendonator’ and ‘dentonator’. -J
Again nylon is tardemark from Dupont for polyamide 6.6 (PA6.6). Then it became an open name use for polyamide. PA 6.6 is the most common polyamide, often use in mechanics for goof friction properties and bad adhésion to other material.
Can use woven or non woven, only have to be open wave. Woven better for the one pièce part after impact. Thicker give stiffer stronger thougher but heavier skin.
nylon have by itself poor adhésion with glue, better to use pet fiber.
@ LeMat
Thanks for the response. I’m taking notes.
Lemat
can you comment on the different/benefit of going with a veil versus a bulker?
Aero-Veil
Aero-Veil is a lightweight non-woven fabric of synthetic fibers specifically designed to improve the aesthetic qualities of wet lay-up laminates. It has excellent formability and drape. Wets out evenly and will add little to the laminate’s thickness.
Thickness: .0047"
Width: 25”
Aero-Mat “Soric LRC”
“Lantor Soric LRC” Aero-Mat is a flexible, low resin consumption honeycomb foam mat used to add structure and thickness to composite laminates. It absorbs approximately 20% less resin compared to the “Lantor Soric XF” 2MM Aero Mat resulting in a lighter finished product. The compression resistant hexagonal cell structure and resin flow channels make Aero-Mat ideal as a core material and infusion medium in one.
Unlike standard cell honeycomb, Soric® LRC is very flexible and will conform to compound shapes. The pressure resistant cells create thickness in the laminate when pressure is applied without the weight of extra fabric layers. The resin flow channels form a pattern of cured resin that offers good mechanical properties and excellent bonding characteristics. It is ideally suited for reinforcing curved laminations where additional stiffness is needed.
Thickness: 2mm
Width: 50”
