Greg, does your company send out info on additive “F” when people order it? The resin research site tells me what I will pay for it, but no other info that I can find. I have looked throught the archives and people are adding cap fulls to their mix. Just want to be sure I use it in the right way.
Thanks
Hafte
Not Greg, but this came from one of his old posts:
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Additive F:
Greg Loehr – Wednesday, 19 February 2003, at 7:35 p.m.
First, as I have stated earlier Additive F is a miracle breakthrough in the production of epoxy surfboards. It does so many things it’s unbelievable.
In laminating, it helps wet the cloth eliminates most air bubbles, especially around wings and boxes, reduces the amount of resin needed, and most of all eliminates blush. Blush is what causes the banana peel effect you were referring to. In hot coats, it eliminates blush, fish eyes, and other surface blemishes and increases Barcol hardness. This increase in Barcol makes the board sand easy and improves the bond and strength between layers.
It also does not interfere with recoating as wax solution in polyester does. That means no sanding between layers. One of the things I have tried to relay on this site is that epoxy boards have become easier to make (and safer as well) than polyester boards. Somehow, I do not think that has gotten through.
Additive F reduces resin use by about 20% in laminates.
How much?
1cc per ounce of hardener = Laminations
2cc per ounce or hardener = Hot/Gloss Coats
“That means no sanding between layers.”
Not sure if it’s a good idea to take this literally.
I have on good authority (Greg himself) that after a period of time, sanding IS necessary for a good bond between layers even with additive F. I was told that they (his crew) often sand between each layer to get a cleaner laminate.
Other people have made suggestions to fill coat over a lamination immediately upon cure then sanding the rail and overlap before laminating/fill coating the other side.
I think Resin Research is good stuff, don’t get me wrong. I just would hate to see anybody having issues with layers not bonding because they waited too long or whatever. Epoxy is quite different from standard poly laminating resin in that regard.
a lot of people have said that additive f is like salt. you just add it to taste. just keep it within reason and things will be fine. when i got mine from fiberglass florida they told me to heat it up slightly and give it a good shake, to relase the wax or whatever is in there.
Additive F smells like acetone, but it congeals when it cools.
It also dissolves xps foam. I bought a can with a friend and it ruined his board by creating gasses under the fiberglass and delaminating.
On a side note, how would I be able to paint an xps (pink foam from home depot) board without having an adverse reaction from the epoxy? We used acrylic paint on top of the glassed surface then painted epoxy over that only to have the epoxy repelled in certain spots. Should we paint the foam first and glass over it or finish the board entirely and paint on the outside with durable automotive paint?
Thanks a million
Why are you using xps? So many problems with xps? You can seal the blank with DAP spackle, then spray paint it with a flat acrylic paint, something like Apple Barrel, or Delta. Not Home Depot’s Bear Arizona White in Semi Gloss.
EPS is such a better material.
or you can just shape a poly board and be done with it.
-Jay
RandR. thanks I saw this post in my search. Thanks for the addition. Much helpful.
Love the signature!!
Working over EPS any issues? I would hate to tell my friend that I have to start over.
Thanks
Hafte
Additive F smells like acetone, but it congeals when it cools.
It also dissolves xps foam. I bought a can with a friend and it ruined his board by creating gasses under the fiberglass and delaminating.
On a side note, how would I be able to paint an xps (pink foam from home depot) board without having an adverse reaction from the epoxy? We used acrylic paint on top of the glassed surface then painted epoxy over that only to have the epoxy repelled in certain spots. Should we paint the foam first and glass over it or finish the board entirely and paint on the outside with durable automotive paint?
Thanks a million
This is a problem with the XPS foam not the type of resin or the additive F. XPS will blow gasses that makes boards delaminate. Last time I talked to the guys at T&C they were having lamination nightmares trying to glass XPS foam without it blowing gasses and creating delams during lamination. Said they had to babysit the boards till the board cured because it would keep delaminating.
I agree with the sentiments here, get off of XPS. As eloquently stated above, EPS is a superior product and is right now going through some vast industry upgrades. The 2# density stuff is rapidly becoming the standard everyone is using. Look around, everyone in FL, all the guys in TX and now everyone in Santa Cruz, which includes M-10, Stretch and Coffee. In San Diego, Mankind and Rusty are moving the same direction. Like JTory said, everyone who’s using XPS is having issues with the stuff. They use that material because you don’t have to seal and most of the industry epoxy newbies think sealing is just too hard. Those of us who have made a living building epoxy boards know what sealing really is about. This is a 5 minute job using water based material that a high school kid can come in and do after school. It take almost NO SKILL to do. Back when we used XPS we ended up sealing it because that was the only way to solve the blowing problems during lamination. If I’m gonna have to seal, I’m gonna use EPS because it’s just so much better material.
Everyone will soon realize that the 2# density EPS is THE BEST FOAM MADE for making standard, shape and glass, high performance surfboards. It will soon be the industry standard over urethane. Why, because IT RIDES BETTER. Read what “Shaper of the Year” Stretch says in his interview, “None of my team riders ride polyester boards anymore.”
Insulfoam is also, right now, introducing foams of higher density as well. All the way up to 4#. So, if you want a superlight weight blank in EPS that’s a 2.5# density. If you’d like a supergreen, that’s 3#. If you’d like a classic weight, that’s 3.5# and for tow boards and heavy longboards you have 4#. None of the EPS foams over 2# density leak any worse than a urethane board does. Unlike urethane and XPS they almost never delaminate. Strength to weight compared to urethane is through the roof. It is VERY temperature stable and doesn’t need to be vented. Break strength on the same weight density is MUCH higher in EPS than in urethane or XPS. Sealing is the only small downside and should NEVER be the reason for using another inferior core material.
I started with EPS almost 25 years ago and every few years that industry comes up with new tech that improves the product. This latest product improvement, higher density foams, makes EPS everything that urethane foam dreams of being. And you know something cool. They don’t have this in CHINA!!! So get with it folks. Join the future where the imports can’t go. Build better CUSTOM product than they can produce out of a mold. Blanks are now available across the US, stock or custom built to your specs.
Segway in SoCal
Hydrofoam in SoCal
Resin Research in FL
Codacore in FL
Chafin blanks in TX
S-Foam in TX
Shuler Systems in OR
Sorry if this sounds like hype but the truth is staring you square in the face. The EPS guys just upped the ante and urethane is no longer, structurally or in terms of performance, a competitive product. The imports have no edge anymore either. A 2.5# density EPS blank with a 6 double 6 opaque laminate will make any Surftech look silly by comparison. And it’s CUSTOM!
And by the way, you want to change flex characteristics? You now have a choice of four different resins with four different flex patterns to choose from. Try that with poopie. Try that with a molded import. We have the materials available to take the whole thing back, right here, right now. Stop fighting with the wrong materials. Change the systems that need changing to make the best product you can make and stop wasting time on dead ends.
And Additive F only goes in at 1%. At 1 or even 2% it won’t effect any foam out there.