Hi Guys, This is my first post taking part in discussions after being underground on here for a long time.
I would really apprechiate some comments about my current build which is essencially a CI Average JOE which im giving a wing/flyer in the tail and taking 1’ of the overall witdth to give it slightly better rail to rail performance and the flyer doing what it does making a board fun, loose fast etc etc…
Its a 5’7 x 20.5 x 2’12 ( I am 6’ and 165 lbs) so will float me really well which is important as I mostly surf shifty beach break but also deal well with chop and makes it harder getting into hollow waves (galeforce cross offshore winds.) So apart from paddling well and being fast when surfing weak waves It must also handle well enough to ride quick hollow beachbreaks when its 2-3ft and fun, and If a 4footer swings in, Im not backing down. However since I have a board to surf 3-4ft good waves in this needs to be different!
Please take a look at the design which cant change to much as I is already cut and roughed it out. I was thinking of putting a very slight belly/V in the nose to a slight single under the front foot to V in the tail. not deep contours though… I will dome the deck a bit and keep the rails somewhere between shortboard and boxy rails as I tend to battle sinking a rail (smaller feet & lanky build). I have flipped the nose rocker a bit and it will end up being 3’1/2 to keep me from nosedives on steep shorebreaks but its right at the end so wont affect paddeling to much.
How does that sound? tail rocker 1’3/4 inch with the rail rocker being around 2’’ at the tail from the V. With the round outline and the flyers, will the board turn well enough to keep the rocker low? (lower the better for flat days IMO)
The last but most important probably… Squash tail like the Joe, or swallow like the Weirdo?
Hello Sir,
Yes, a bit narrower helps rail-to-rail… but if you got smaller feet then a ten I would go no more than 14" for tail width. Then thin out tail enough so as to assist n as in sink n rail…I hate boxy rails, so ur on track debating…id say go with good old low shortboard rails! Add sum xtra kick in tail - just eye ball it and feel it w/hands…then measure w /calipers to even out… def add more v man! Prob a medium v would assist you better as ya YOU said you want it to carve!.. again, for your turns removing foam behind the fins helps you tip nose up for turns…ever notice how much harder you gotta lean to turn on a flatter tail?
That board should turn great “as is”
, but I would say put maybe 3/16" of V in front of fins. I did it on a build, but I kinda slipped with it and
Ended up with a DEEP whopping .25 of V! Luckily the kid who bought it from me -loves it!
Isn’t weirdo ripper a swallow tAil? Go with either squash or swallow as they feel similar - with a tad more hold w swallow tails. Up to pref.
Thanks for the input shapaholic. Im with you on the kick in the tail man. The boards that turned best have been the ones with more tail rocker… So with the V I should have a little bit of “the best of both”? Im doing a Mtbike race tomorrow so will only be back on here on sunday night GMT time but looking forward to seeing the comments.
PS I think Im going to shave the wing nice and thin and keep the tail nice and thin, like 1’2 - 3/4’'… that wil carve like a hot knife through butter.
Not sure what type of blank your using but definitely look her over when you thin it out so ya don’t get it wafered!.. Aft reading what ya said, I’m geussing you already foiled or thinned bottom to thickness? So you can thin it more off deck when you thin out your nose, tail and rails…look her over a lot, feel it out with your hands, look at shadows -use the calipers and even out the tables. Fyi - a really good shaper out n santa cruz shaped me a custom board once. Anyway, I was saying I wanted a looser board than I had… he goes, “ok, you want some xtra kick!” This man did exactly what I needed! Fyi- shaper was Bob Pearson of Pearson Arrow surfboards out of santa cruz. I lost count of how many good rides I had on that board…lol.sadly, I de-lamoed the deck terribly so I sold it.good times.
Another tip I asked a Shaper in the shaping rm what foil means… then he told me it’s thinning board from the bottom, and checking at various points… or, check thickness at center, a foot from tip ends, and 24" from tip ends… when I’m talking of the tip ends of thee board. Check with your calipers these points to how thin or thick you want it… now I need to learn to use a rocker stick#?!?
Im with you with the tail kick, but also aware that tail rocker kills speed on smaller flatter waves like we get here at a spot that handles massive swells we get in capetown well. Its called muizenberg and a longboarders heaven… even when its 4 ft it still doesnt pitch so you need a flattish board. I would hate to shape a board for conditions that I dont enjoy that much, but I do want it to go in those conditions aswell, Hence, trying to squeese as much turnability out of a flatter rocker line hoping for best of both worlds.
I saw a “panel v” on this thread http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/small-wave-vee-bottoms and it also makes sence to me… more surface to plane on the flatter tail rocker, and then when put on rail youhave the rail rocker which starts getting agressive as you hit the wing/flyer…
Chat again later. heres a quick pick of the bit of work ive done on it… thickness pretty much up to size under the chest. then still bit to remove under the nose for rocker and the back end will get thinned out from midway back… I wil dicect your post better when I get back tomorrow night.
Man, I didn’t realize you are n sa! I hear ya on keeping tail a bit flatter for sum speed…maybe you could add a
Moderate v to compensate for less kick? Locally ive surfed a point break that’s similar to most point breaks you prob surf? Now what im going to say is a bit out of the norm. Ok, I borrowed a 5’4" kneeboard bcuz a friend tried it on stand-up surfing and did well on it.anyhow, I decided to give it a whirl out at pleasure point n santa cruz…I.picked my first wave a mediocre two footer w juice! And man! My back side bottom turn was a jet-like release! It sent me literaly flying almost to shoulder…and on my cut back I nearly spun out! But strangely the keels held in a pivotal slide out…and I kept goin! I caught about five more and called it quits cuz it was kinda gettin dim out… so you can try more v - with less kick. I think you could even put a slight roll in v so as to possibly free up tail…ive only tried it on a nose v but I heard a Shaper tell me he actually did it on a custom he built me…the board felt very smooth. I’d just let your imagination go and you’ll figure it out.
More… I’m look n at your blank and it looks like it has lots of rocker in nose already…you should verify with a rocker stick if you have one? And if the nose and tail rocker is close you won’t have to alter your blank much… if you haven’t thinned or foiled it out on bottom. I would just thin the whole board down to thickness on the bottom first. Then check nose and tail rocker and get the end numbers you wanted. Then thin out nose and tail when you dome the deck… that way you won’t ruin yout rocker your shootin for. I wouldn’t worry about rail rocker too much because your light single concave is naturally goin to set it up for you…as will the v panels. At least that’s what I’m thinking. Just go real slow as ya know when ya delete foam -your done! You can’t put it back. But in case you think you have to thin out the tail. What you want to do is check with your calipers at the foot up mark, and two foot up mark to pick your thickness numbers…same for the nose side. Look n at my own blank, I just have to thin my tail and nose out from deck is all…and foil the bottom first…im debating v or a single concave in my tail? Heard tri-plane hulls r great for point breaks. But I need more time shaping before I try one!
I thought about your board, also, the break you plan to use it at…here’s what I came up with! Go one and a half inch tail rocker! And go w moderate v…if you can, try to keep the nose rocker at three and a quarter, or three and three quarter max. Make sure the thickness at the 12" mark is at least one and a half thick w calipers there in zee tail k. You’ll need it. Same on nose end, or a sliver less. Ltr thin on dek side to thin her out. Wing it w sand n block etc…
You do want to sink that tail, right? Bring you weigh 160, if you go one and three quarter thick it’s going to b difficult to sink tail…and w three plus fins you wont tilt n rail much… how wide is tail? Bcuz if it’s fourteen or so wide youll have enough width to tilt ur rails over with v…a moderate v should b A ok! Get sum 80 gr sanding screen used for dry wall itll speed up the thinning process. Just don’t do what my neighbor did! He thinned his board down to a wafer! He threw it in za dumpster lol.
Hey Shapaholic!
Shot for all the thoughts man. Your last post is pretty spot on for me man. I think im going to put the tail rocker at 1’1/2 and the nose and as you said, around 3’1/2 for the nose… the reason I thought maybe more was that If that last 1/2’ does not come at the expence of any more rocker further down It might help one out on steeper drops.
I did a little comparison on the Ave joe rocker here. I think the ave joe has quite a nice rocker profile as Its not a plank like typical smallwave boards in that it goes like lightnigh down the line or on small waves but pumping and turning is a nightmare. The blank I got was quite flat so I took some material out in the top 1/3rd of the board to help put a bit of rocker in, although now comparing it to the Joe rocker(which is a bit thicker than it should be as its scaled up) I need to be carefull to keep the thickest part in the front under the chest. As you can see where I overlayed the JOE onto the photo of my side profile, It gives one a bit of an Idea where to take off foam. Keep in mind its not exact, and I have a bit of foam to work with still. I hear you as far as making it to thin. and From my previous boards, Its not the case, I alwaystend to make my nose and tails to thick rather than to thin.
That tail is 15’ at 1ft back from tail, and then it steps up to 15’3/4 at the flyer. I still think it will turn well considering its got such a curvy outline at the tail, and not to wide.
These overlays will probably give some of the purists on here the creeps, haha…
I didnt mention that the Joe have very similar rocker template to what you described… I rotated the pic by 1 deg in Photoshop and then suddenly It fitted much better, with me just having to thin out the back half of the bottom by about 5/16 ( 8mm) I work in Metric here in SA as we were a Brittish Colony untill 100 odd years ago 
So Im going to work it down nice and slow as you say, then paint… oh boy…have you seen this new finish the “Luckey Bastards” are doing? Check it out below. I cant figure out how the heck they do it… Is it a dark resin tint with a different colour hotcoat over? anyway. Thats another discussion all together… Maybe I’ll go search the forums
Im getting excited to go finish this board man. I have been so busy with this bike race over the weekend.
Yeah, I’ve only less than five board’s - 3 re-shapes + two w blanks that were new… but I’ve figured out where I over shot it, and where I could leave more foam to degree…I know I gotta test um out to know what I want…for now I’ve learned a big lesson on not going to deep on nose flip bcuz it’ll push water…but I agree the floaty apex would be good under chest! On my last board I kept my nose rocker lower I didn’t measure much w stick…but I used my calipers and checked thickness at the foot up from tips mark…one and a half thick in tail, I think same for nose…I
Think I should have thinned out my nose/tail area more on deck side …my nose and tail is at least not wafered. The ideal is get it thin, but not weak… your tail rocker sounds great for the break you plan to use it at though! As for your v can be hard in front of fins then fade out to less v to flat out back ive heard…but a panel v carries deepest out back I think? As for up board v goes I think close to wide point would be good I’d imagine if your wide point is forward…if wide point was/is center or back your end fade out of v would be a third or so up board from tips…so any end point for ur v can be from in front of fins -to wide point…I wouldn’t want any v in my entry rocker bcuz that part of board be freed from catching water…if a anything you want more of a roll to help board gyrate and pump…deletion of un-wanted foam in your tail (behind fins) I’m think n helps you tip board (nose end) out of the water…this I’m going to say will drive the board in an upward angle, and come down in a tighter angle…so at the foot mark from tip on tail end I give it a slight angle of kick…there’s obviously more foam up board that we will remove…but it’s blending into overall rocker of boards natural rocker…for nose or tail rocker(in general) most blanks seem to have a bend at either end about 1/3 up from tips…so in theory - one can even add rocker to these points! It’s not easy tho. It’s tons simpler to get blank close to your shape. That way you can just foil to rough thickness on bottom…then you only have a few slivers to delete of foam in areas you don’t need…yup! I do slow my planing down in the nose and tail areas ! Or when im get n close…I been putting planer at a mm, and I kinda feather in xtra rocker by eye…I push a bit stiffer as I enter at tip end ill ease off to zero…I prob should b at the lower setting…lol. I suppose I could try cross cutting and clean up planing aft an adjustment…I guess we all do it a little different!? Lol.anyway, if your using pu foam we can cheat w/surform…you can adjust/add a little xtra tail kick with um! And clean up w sand n block…it’s worked for me on three beater reshapes so far!
I am look n at your pic file, and I’m thinking you could remove a tad more foam in front of chest area…May be a slight “step deck!” Not my idea…but why not!? I thought I saw someone doin it on a short board. To thin tail all you can do is wing it with a surform,block and tune w screen…or sand.
So the board is glassed and after I hotcoat the top tonight I will do fins tomorrow.
HOWEVER…the fin placement on this board has baffled me completely. I dont quite feel like experimenting with something that could be a complete ballsup. Thats why I am asking some advice before I stuff it up
The big problem here is that the wings are at 1ft exactly. As you all know the rail/front fin interaction is a very imporatnt element in a surfboard. so this wing being thrown right into that spot has me worried. My options are the following:
- I can stick with the plan and live with whatever happenes. Put the fins 3'1/2 off the tail and the wing meets the fin halfway. This might possibly reduce drive, hopefully not to much(will prob ride quad) and hopefully the board wont be so loose that I cant still surf it in good waves at 2-3ft
- I can move the whole cluster of fins forward untill the front fins are similar to the CI weirdo- ripper and other boards Ive seen. I hope that having the rail-fin area clear of the wing for the most part The board wont be to much of a handfull,still have some drive but be nice and fun.
- I use 4'1/4 which is kind of halfway between the two.
Once Ive made that choice. Where do I measure the trailing edge of the fin from. In most cases in this scenario the trailing edge falls “below” the step, I see from looking at pictures of similar boards, that the fin kind of sits where the outline would have been had it not stepped in by the wing. Is that where I should aim to put it? or do I measure off the last point of the “actual” rail line ?
Further, I then went on to check toe in I dont want this board to be slow when surfed in small weak waves as Im definately not on a level that can effieciently pump for speed in slop however the board musnt be stiff either, and with the wing, generous “V” in the tail I shouldnt have a problem turning., My projections were taken from Mckee’s formula, which looked a lot more than what comparative boards… Ave Joe and weirdo Ripper… Should I just copy their toe ins? It looks like about 4’’ off the stringer by the nose for the fronts and 2’’ for the rear quads. Compared to what I normally use (Mckees) 2’’ for the front and 1’’ for the rear.
Anny advice apprechiated!
Please check my ramblings below:
Definitely copy the toe in etc…im not a glasser. Nice looking shape !
Placements for fins for me are probably outdated ten yrs. Dunno, but I like my fins below my foot or close…tow in I am 3/16" for upper . Twins off rail around " 1- 1 1/4", for cant maybe just four to six deg? Yeah, copy the thing… but if in doubt -post about it. Have fun!
It’s your board, but you know what would be k- would be to make a quad out of it…do glass ons to cut weight…just thinking it might be less weighty…
CT_shaper - how far up are the twins on your spec sheet? Actually, go with what they used bcuz it’s part of the design. But if you strayed from it, I would post to see what five fin guys r riding.
Im gonna do mine a quad, and put rear twins inboard 2", and tow 1/8", my fronts inboard from rail 1 1/4" -tow 3/16" , and prob 11-11 1/2" up. Cant maybe six for twins x zero for the rears. I want gobs of drive, so they could be set 5.5"-behind twins. Or 6" up from tips. Anyone?
