Alaia build - cedar: epoxy or oil finish?

Hey ya'll - some notes on my latest project and some questions below on how/what to finish with (hope this is helpfull):

Alaia build notes:

Here are some notes from my Alaia build, I’m making 2+2 Alaias (7’ x 17”; 5’ x 15”, 35” (a shelf), 18” (Kanani’s board):
Material costs: 1 x 4 x 12’ cedar (Home Depot) $60+/-; West System epoxy $20, Small block plane $8, plus sandpaper, masking tape, gloves, etc.

Tools used: Table saw, circular saw, router, jigsaw, clamps, hand planes, sander, 5 gal bucket elbow grease.

Lessons learned – takes a lot longer than I expected from what I’d read, but then again I’m making a whole fleet of Alaia’s here.  Wish I’d gotten some cleaner stock (better grain), but I did pick through the whole pile at HD for my select 6 boards, but “next time” I’m gonna rip out ALL the knots and check for more parallel straight grain, and try to orient the grain of all the boards in the same direction.  I spent about a Sat afternoon on each step except the shaping which took a day and a half.

1.    Ripped boards to remove most of the knots, sorted and cut to length and then re-ripped and arranged to get a nice width pattern across the board.

2.    Glued up – I really like the west system epoxy – plenty of work time (40 min) to fuss.  Used some on-hand tite bond for the shelf & Kanani board.

3.    Worked out a great clamping idea – screw 2x4 to the work surface, used a long piece of aluminum square tubing and angle (screen door frame), plus door shim wedges for clamping pressure.  Used 6mil visqueen to keep the epoxy from sticking to the work surface and clamps.  That will be the setup on my next eps blank glue up.

4.    Made an outline using some research, a photo, scaled to fit my dims, cut out and traced.

5.    Tailblock T&G was made with the table saw to cut the grove in the tailblock and the router to cut the tongue on the tail of the board.  First I cut the tail square with a circular saw.

6.    Since I was hand planning, I helped cut the bottom concave using the table saw – set the blade to 1/8 inch depth, clamped a wood fence to the table and slid the board perpendicular to the blade.  Made 5 passes (reclamping fence as needed and lifting up the board at the end of each pass to taper the depth) and then set the depth 1/8 inch higher and repeated.  Saved a lot of time.  Need to set the fence so the blade doesn’t grab the board and chew up the rail….

7.    Hand planning with the small block plane was going great until I dropped it and broke the blade.  My neighbor had an old Stanley so I sharpened her up and that saved the day.  Sure made the final planning go smoothly, no pun intended.

8.    Final shape in the photos show a covex nose, then flat and then concave through the last 2/3, plus tapered rails top& bottom.

 

Next step is to finish the fleet.  Navy grey has been ruled out.  Also my research is steering me away from the various combos of linseed oil, turpentine, pig snot, seal blood, etc and towards epoxy, especially for the 7 and 5 footers.   Q1: I have RR epoxy – will that work?  If not what is recommended.  Q2: I saw on another thread (http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1029005) about unwaxed shellac fallowed by three coats of epoxy and four or so coats of marine varnish – what does the shellac under the epoxy do?  What does the marine varnish over the epoxy do?  Q3:  Would a single coat of RR epoxy seal the wood?

Thanks,

JW









Here's a close up of the smaller boards - the bigger one will be mounted on some wood brackets as a shelf and the smaller one will be Kanani's board (I've got girly girls).

P.S. This was a fun project, including the research, planning and of course the best part was the hand planing - seriously; a wooden board, a sharp plane and a sunny day...

Ok, so I guess this isn't the hotest topic...........but if you get a chance to read this and have some time to comment, your feedback and/or advice is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

I don't like using toxic chemicals so I'm a fan of Tung oil. If you're gonna ride these things, it's great for the water and holds up well. If you're going for a glossy wallhanger, go with epoxy.

Epoxy is far less toxic than you might think. I’d get the flexiest RR Greg makes and lay it on thick. But I don’t know squat about alaias…

Thanks for the replys!

I think if I had made them out of paulownia or a better cedar stock than what I used I would go w/ the tung oil, but the cedar I used has some areas of loose grain (where a growth ring feathers to zero thickness), plus my glue up has gaps, etc so I'm worried about water getting in where the tung oil may not be.    So the epoxy seems a better bet for waterproofing (If this was just a wall hanger I would oil it).  LOL it may be one yet after I try to ride it....  As far as toxicity goes - I ride epoxy boards, in fact I've done some of my best face plants and pearlage on epoxy boards....  So then does the shellac and varnish referenced in that other thread do anything? 

Thanks!

JW

Sure, shellac or varnish is fine too. If you go with that, it may be harder to refinish later. That's stuff works great if you don't mind the trouble applying/reapplying it. Also, you can make a paste of wood flour (fine sawdust) and whatever oil or finish you use. If it's given time to cure it can fill voids really well. I do that with tung oil and paulownia and it seals cracks and stays put. Good luck!

Soooo...after much internal discussion.... got some Tung oil finish (about $10/qt) at Lowes for the smaller boards, liked it so much I ended up using it for the whole fleet.  Spent about a week putting on coats, letting dry, light sanding, DNA wipe down, recoat.  Went through 2 qts on all 4 boards.  I decided to save the RR epoxy for my next board due to cost factor and simplicity.  Attached results.  The smallest 24" fits w/ small dowel pegs onto two triangular cedar shelf brackets, a doll stand will fit on top of that for my youngest to display her Kanani doll.  Next up the 35" got a LED light on the bottom and cedar shelf brackets for a desk light/book shelf for the older sister.  The 5 footer was a gift to be displayed and the 7 footer will actually be surfed, or at least floated....I'll report back w/ how that works out.....water is warm so far (68), so just need one of those 2-3 days.

Thanks everyone for your feed back.  If I can emphasize anything it would be to select the wood so the grain is parallel and glue up the boards so the grain runs in the same direction.


Great work… you gonna ride that bigger one? You gotta give it a go!

Thanks Xylem, I haven't had a chance yet - I rode a quad on the "Big Wednesday" one day swell we had last week (feb 22).  Overhead FL (3ft Hawaiian), probably not a good day for my first try on an Alaia....

However, did get the shelves mounted hopefully the results posted below:



You can see insert holes for foot straps. I am not a good enough kiter in the surf to go reliably without straps.

With this little, finless board will I be able to carve like Top Hat? Wish me luck. Anyway the build was fun.

Ok, well I tried and actually got up a few times, but it was super hard to paddle, almost no float and I weigh 200lbs.  When I did get up it was very fun and fast.  My best results were standing in waist deep water and getting a few strokes in then standing up fast, only one milisecond between success and failure.  Most fun was just belly riding it in the shallows, very fun.  Spent several mornings at LW park in cocoa beach skimming on my belly.  Finally had to retire it because I buried the nose in the sand and it started to split at a knot hole.  So lessons learned will be to pick better grained stock, and try to get some more float - either thicker or a foam core for us fat boyz.  All in all a very fun project.

how about nothing on them at all… cedar is durable in salt water

iamSAW - Thanks for the thread. I have just been thinking about using the local lumbar yard's 1" red/rough cedar for a skim board for kite skimming.  I was surfing the net for hints and here you are. I am going to do it. You certainly did nice work!

paulcannon - Do you have actual experience with anything of untreated cedar that was often immersed in salt water and did not warp? I would not put anything on my board if I was sure it was durable without.

Hey guys,

     A great way to finish a cedar project like an alaia is to first seal coat the wood with epoxy then when it has fully cured sand and add another coat.  After the second coat has cured, sand it to 320 g and apply  5 coats of marine spar varnish.  Sand with 150 between the first 3 coats then to 320 on the fourth and follow up with 0000 steel wool. At this point you will have a satin smooth surface.  Now using a sponge brush, apply the final coat.  This coat should be very light.  Brush the varnish out wet to dry and work quickly.  After the surface is coated you will have a crystal clear finish which is high gloss and resistant to dings.  It is also very easy to repair.  I use this method to finish wood boats.  The varnish is also nice with wood as it has a gold tint which really highlights the woods natural warmth.

Schmidt - Your seal and finish schedule has a lot of a lot of steps, but worth it if it is worth it. However, it is so opposite paulcannon's idea that I wonder what gives?

As to paulcannons suggestion,  I respectfully disagree.  Leaving the bare wood exposed to the water is in my opinion not advisable.  Cedar is a wonderful wood and is indeed moisture resistant, rot resistant and insect resistant.  It is also light in weight and strong for a soft wood.  However when exposed to water, the end grain will suck up water and your board will swell. You see, even though the wood is dead it is still alive.  Its end grains are actually the capillaries which carry water and nutrients to the plant and when cut and dried these capillaries will behave much like a sponge and fill with water.  The by product of this will be a board which will way a ton, may split at the ends and will most certainly discolor and warp.

      My method is based in wooden boat building.  Specifically cedar strip canoes and kayaks.  It does however transfer quite well to alais.  There are many ways to skin a cat.  Tung oil is another of my favorite finishes but it is not as resilient as spar varnish.  The epoxy sealer coat adds bomb proof water repellency.  Epoxy just doesn’t polish very well without additive f and even then I’m personally not into it.  The varnish is the key here.  It goes on easy and sands well and when you build up several coats it adds brilliance.  A side benefit is that marine spar varnish retains an elastic nature even after full cure.  It is scratch and ding resistant.  

      Boiled linseed oil is another alternative but that stuff seems to remain tacky for quite a while.  Further multiple coats dont work well for me in that medium.  My way isn’t the only way or the only right way.  But I can tell you this.  It produces a flawless product which is my ultimate goal regardless of the project.  Hope this helps.  By the way, your boards look very nice.  You definitely have the eye.  Keep it up!

Schmidt - Great fulsome reply!

But ... boy did I jump the gun. Making like I was ready to build, and I was, in my mind, but in the local lumber yard things changed. I pawed through a selection of knoty, warped and cracked boards until the urge to build out of red cedar went away completely. What I envisioned as a cheap and easy material to work with seems not to be, here, for me. Maybe somewhere else or for someone with more tools and skills.

Don’t give up yet dawg!  If you have a table saw and a hand plane ther are very few things you cannot achieve.  Patience is the key to wood selection.  There have been times I have visited 8-10 lumber yards to find the wood I wanted for a project.  Boats and surfboards.  If you want it it is there.  I have bought entire pieces of lumber for just 2-4 strips of material 1"x1/4"!  How far am I willing to go for the effect I want?  For me it is not about time or money.  It is the journey.  Each project is a step on that road from which I grow and learn.  Don’t give up yet bro!  Experiment, try new methods.  You will have fun and emerge on the other end a better craftsman for your effort.

I gave up before because I was going to bend in rocker and there seemed to be too many knots in the cedar boards I looked at. Then I saw the Wood Is Good video by TopHat. His (kite) board is alaia thin. It was a thin kiteboard I was going to make, and his rockerless one looks good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpTV4vBMn8k

He probably can make anything work, but I prefer to think the board is actually good, so at Ace I got some red cedar boards that were the clearest of knots and straightest I could find. I pawed through about a hundred 1"x6" fence boards and twenty or so 1"x8"x8' boards. At this stage the two 6" wide fence boards and the 8" wide other board are just cut to approximate length, edge dressed, Gorilla glued, and clamped together by means of wedges in a surrounding frame. If I have done something wrong like didn't use enough glue, or later find I poorly selected boards for the shape I want, I will start over because I can see this type red cedar build has potential.

I PMd TopHat asking some specifics about shape and flex of his board. I will give him about a week, then if there is no answer I will proceed anyway. Probably in a week or two I will have to decide about finish.