DR
What are the disadvantages and advantages of Future against Lokbox and vice versa? Do you use both?
Thanks
Greg
pau…aloha and mahalo!
Howzit Dennis, I have 1 board that has Ofish'l boxes and they were another of the first systems out. What I wonder about is why after a couple of years my Ofish'l fins are loose in the boxes and want to fall out. To bad they didn't put a screw in before Futures did, now if they did it would probably be a patent infringement. Aloha,Kokua
haha… I’ve talked to fin guys that think boards should be designed around the fins.
At Hydro Epic we mostly used Future boxes because they were strong and easy to integrate into our molding process. We reinforced them from behind and bagged them into place … cinchy. They were also just introducing Vectors in various exotic materials. It seemed like a good match to sell our boards with Vectors, since we were both focused on new technology. And… they were becoming available at surfshops everywhere, so you could replace broken fins when traveling.
FCS were harder to locate in our molds. There was a higher margin for error if we put them in before bagging, and they were a pain to put in after. We had to use them on a few team rider boards. We had to go through a half-dozen steps and mix epoxy three times to set the boxes - as opposed to one for the Futures.
RedX boxes had to go through the board. We couldn’t put them in before bagging, and we didn’t want to cut our hollow boards open to put in boxes after. Hollow boards work way better if they don’t have holes in them.
LokBox and O’Fishl were good products, but when I was specing boxes, they didn’t yet have the shop coverage or fin choices Futures did.
It used to be if you were traveling, you’d better have FCS. They were universally available. They designed them so the tabs on the fins would break before damaging the boxes. More broken fins… more replacements… more happy shop owners… not so bad that your board is still OK.
Now days, you can get LokBox at more shops than before. The fins selection is comprehensive, and the connection is really positive. Jeff Clark swears by them.
Quote:
How is it going Oneula…good to see you on the thread. for ultra light 1lb or less EPS there’s no better system than Tom’s Redx design. Pointblanks recognized this many years ago.
It’s bolt through and forward aft adjustability are a perfect fit for ultra light EPS compsands.
But the main difference is that the bore through method provide the perfect heat release for epoxy mounting of boxes in ultralight EPS.
LokBox and Probox have great features and are relatively easy to install but in ultralight EPS along with FCS require insert pulds of highdensity foam or wood to prevent pull outs. Lokbox seems to have one of the best box designs for strength and they have a heck of alot of of fins to choose from.
Four Way Fin Systems have on of the most unique fin systems out there.
But no matter how unique and goo this fins systems are. The problem they have is that you just can’t go into your local surfshop around the country even here in the northshore and either but components or the fins. That’s kill any product no matter what. And here lies one of the major problems of our industry. Surf Shops. Having owned one…the shop owner “must” be at the whim of marketing and hype (my favorite word I know…Ha Ha). Surfers have been trained on this by advertisments and pro sponsorship. The entire industry would change if you go directly to the manufacture or throuh online shops that deal with that manufacture. You can have any of this shipped to your house cheaply. I realize you can’t just drive down and pick one up on the way to the beach…but really…if you like a system…why not simply stock up on replacements and save yourself the trip. They don’t realize it yet and neither do customers…but mega shops and retail stores selling highly marketed items are a things of the past. Dinosaurs. Customers want direct service and people that know what they are talking about…not shop employees paid $7.00 an hour to re sell advertisment for industry leaders.
Ease of access is what seperates FCS and Future from the rest. And that one difference is why they will be a default choice for many builder and production shops for many years to come, no if and or buts about it. Its the chicken and egg scenerio and as product won’t be stocked until the shops see a movement to something else. As you see more and more lokbox being installed primarily because of the fish craze you may start to see more fins becoming available in shops but at this point I haven’t seen it. There is some truth to this…but these shapers are making it so they must tow the rope for systems that may actually be inferior and who push hard to have things their own way. Maybe builders in productions shops need to go away as well and enter in Craftmen who set the market instead of going along with what someone else is selling. Production shops form alliances with these people and overall it could be hurting the other possibilities in the sport. From a consumer point of view…the industry would be much better served with variety and not the product whose marketing is best.
One telling thing is that among all the options available out there, the two leading pioneers of flexible response boards Firewire and Surflight have chosen to go with FCS. I don’t know about Hyrdoepic maybe Kendall can chirp in but it’s probably more about cost, availability of fins choices than anything else. But maybe theirs also csomething about how this design works on ultralight tail flexing designs… Again…this only shows and alliance and following rather than leading. I personally wouldn’t call them leading pioneers either…only the first ones to jump onto something thats been around awhile and try and make a go of it with major production. They are beautiful products…but I can count how many I have seen in the water on one hand. Good points though oneuela. You have been around awhile yourself and have seen your share.
Finally I think the illusion of the benefits of a system has changed quite a bit. Initially the promise was to support travel and the ability to use different fins although that was a fallacy cause each manufacturer made sure you could only use their fin designs. Somehow over the years it was changed to propose that you could end up a better product by using a box system. I guess this fit the mentality of all the kids today with their expensize racing tires/rims and the flow though exhaust on their cheap little japanese “pocket rockets”… People are trying to find a way to maximize their investment of a cheap product with some after market slap-ons. Got love love this one. This paragraph needs to go in the swaylocks hall of fame (not that I am for any institution…heh heh)
From a performance standpoint a properly designed board and glassed on fin combination is all you could ever expect fropm your builder. A builder that is giving you a “high performance” custom board that rely’s on after maker fin solutions is just pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. I think other than sponsership obligations, most “go to” boards everyone has in their quiver is a custom board with glass on fins designed and put on specifically for the design, the rider and the waves the board is supposed to be ridden on.
Just a laymen’s view on the topic with a ting of corporate america thrown in…
Take it for what it’s worth Exellent points…I was hoping some of the futures or FCS guys would join in because I am still wanting to see which design may be the best in the absense of a glass on surfboard world.
I think the home builder makes decisons based on different criteria than shops. In a factory environment, things need to be quick and easy, and they need to be cost effective. I think FCS probably has the advantage here. I also think that in today’s market, companies, don’t want to give you too many options. If they did, they wouldn’t be able to sell as much. The video camera market is an example. There are so many models, but none have all the “right” options, until you’re willing to spend a ton of money.
If shops sold the perfect shape with a fin system that offered a lot of adjustments and fin choices, they’d probably sell less boards. A good board could be ridden in a wider range of waves just by changing the fins or the angle of cant.
For the ultimate adjustments and fin choices, I like probox. I’m working on a PU board now that I wanted a lot of adjustments with the fins. I found these little boxes at FH that are like twice as long as a FCS plug. They should allow about a 1/2 travel and are T shaped, so I figure they may be a little stronger. I planned on using them, but they are like futures and go in before the lamination. I decided to go with proboxes, since I can put them in later. I’ll also have a lot more choices on fins and cant.
For strength I like Red-x boxes, but they have limited fin choices. For the EPS compsands, I place a couple of pieces of 1/4" balsa perpendicular to the fin where the box goes in. This gives me a of of strength for any fin box, and the wood lam hides the reinforcements. For easy installation, I like the FCS, probox and the long O’fishl boxes, but those are heavy.
Quote:
I think the home builder makes decisons based on different criteria than shops. In a factory environment, things need to be quick and easy, and they need to be cost effective. I think FCS probably has the advantage here. I also think that in today’s market, companies, don’t want to give you too many options. If they did, they wouldn’t be able to sell as much. The video camera market is an example. There are so many models, but none have all the “right” options, until you’re willing to spend a ton of money.
If shops sold the perfect shape with a fin system that offered a lot of adjustments and fin choices, they’d probably sell less boards. A good board could be ridden in a wider range of waves just by changing the fins or the angle of cant.
For the ultimate adjustments and fin choices, I like probox. I’m working on a PU board now that I wanted a lot of adjustments with the fins. I found these little boxes at FH that are like twice as long as a FCS plug. They should allow about a 1/2 travel and are T shaped, so I figure they may be a little stronger. I planned on using them, but they are like futures and go in before the lamination. I decided to go with proboxes, since I can put them in later. I’ll also have a lot more choices on fins and cant.
For strength I like Red-x boxes, but they have limited fin choices. For the EPS compsands, I place a couple of pieces of 1/4" balsa perpendicular to the fin where the box goes in. This gives me a of of strength for any fin box, and the wood lam hides the reinforcements. For easy installation, I like the FCS, probox and the long O’fishl boxes, but those are heavy.
Shark…
Good one. It seems to me the surfer is better served to have a single board with multiple functions rather than a quiver. Unless someone just likes spending money. Imagine the money the consumer can save. He can get a fully dolled up pigment dyed board from his favorite shaper with multiple fin configurations and cants.
Best I can tell so far from all that have posted:
-
FCS seems to be the least effective system but with the most world wide distribution.
-
Futures seems to be second in distribution and a simple system (much like other systems of the past) but more limited in expandability and variation.
-
Probox and Lokbox have the most expandability and variation with probox having the edge in variation.
-
Red x and others are nice…but are likely to not be with us or a major factor
I wish there were FCS or Futures advocates that posted here. Seems like there should be more to it than that.
Also…what technical differences are there between Futures…Probox…lokbox…fCS. By techincal…I mean quality…function…etc.
As far as quality or function. I think Futures designed a stronger box than FCS in terms of the forces pushing on the fin sideways. I have heard from people that had a fin come out of the futures box, and I have seen the FCS boxes ripped out.
My biggest worry about the fins systems way back when they were introduced was whether they would handle the forces from a hard turn. I have broken the buildup on glassed on fins on a couple of boards, and even lost a fin on a Linden Epoxy way back in the early 90’s. All from cranking a hard turn. The Linden delamed where the fin broke off and it was never the same again.
I think fin selection is an important factor for selecting a system. Lockbox has nice selection and allows some movement for and aft. Probox has inserts, so you just put in the one you want.
Fiberglass Hawaii has a larger selection of Futures fins than FCS. I don’t know if that says anything.
One the other side of the coin, when I buy a board now I question whether the shaper is critical about the fins on the board. The Griffen I have has custom made fins. While they have been made for adjustments, the board is marked for where the fins should be. I’m not sure how much different fins would make because it works so well now. I’ve ridden a firewire fish my brother has with FCS plugs and it is amazing how much difference changing the fins made.
Fins put an enormous pressure on the box. If the fin is made of strong material and press-fit to the box, you can use a fin tab that is as small as FCS with no problems.
Lokbox uses a taper for the press fit. This design was invented by Tom Morey in the 60s for longboard boxes. It is an intelligent engineering-style solution.
Red-X and Futures and FCS use close tolerance fits. This is prone to difficulties. Either you make it using heavier materials and close tolerance, or you end up with fins that have a hard time fitting. A press fit will always be able to beat the weight and strength of close tolerance fits - I am not saying that is the case currently, but it is always the end point.
The problem with the Lokbox taper fit is that every time a fin is inserted and removed, the box flexes a little. Over time little spider cracks develop near the tips of the boxes. I used to think these cracks were from the small radius, but I think it is the taper…I still think the taper fit is an elegant solution, but there will need to be a small mod to keep the spider cracks at bay. Ask a ding repair guy someplace where there are plenty of Lokboxes. Or you could just leave the fins in there instead of putting them in and out a lot. I should add that I would really want to test this theory out, you should be able to take a new board, insert fins 100 times forcefully, and see the cracks develop. Whatever the cause is, it should be taken care of.
Futures and FCS have issues. Screws strip. Fins don’t fit. But each is big enough that they manage their companies around the market and their business model, they do real research into their business (I am not talking about flow tanks, but counting units in different markets, etc). They adjust and adapt from year to year in intelligent ways meant to capture the bulk of the market.
Any of these is adequate for your boards, in that 99.9% of all surfers will not care as long as the fins and board work well together. The shapers I knew had a preference that was the system that installed most easily, and they would over-ride that on request from the surfer. If the surfer wants to use Vectors, install Futures. If he wants a Speed Dialer, Lokbox. If he wants FCS, give him FCS. Etc, in the end the customer is right, and surfboard makers strive to satisfy him, not bend him to their will.
HTH and doesn’t piss anyone off too much…
Quote:
Futures and FCS have issues. Screws strip. Fins don’t fit. But each is big enough that they manage their companies around the market and their business model, they do real research into their business (I am not talking about flow tanks, but counting units in different markets, etc). They adjust and adapt from year to year in intelligent ways meant to capture the bulk of the market.
HTH and doesn’t piss anyone off too much…
Good post blake and more of the tech I was looking for. Funny thing about futures…They look alot like the old Star systems box from the Twin Fin era. Do you remember those. That box started as pop ins and ended up with a little tab hook holding in the fin in the rear. Fin boxes left and didn’t come back for awhile afterwards. Now boxes appear to be the standard and with more alternatives. I like the idea of multiple options…especially since I mostly ride single, but still would like to switch to three or four fins without taking two boards to the beach.
Kokua, I would wonder about a loose fin as well. Have your fins actually ever fallen out? I’ve asked Ofish’l guys about their fins coming out of boxes, though I’ve never seen it happen. FWIT… Their response was in the early stages they did have a problem but it was remedied long ago… they have been around for a long time now.
Greg, I’ve never worked with Lokbox as yet so I can’t comment on the differences of them versus Futures.
D.R.
Howzit SharkCountry, I think the reason FH has more future fins is because we have a FCS rep on Oahu and maybe Ted is the Futures rep or has the retail sewn up with them. Aloha,Kokua
Howzit solo, The reason that the FCS fins don’t always fit is because the installer guys have a tendency to pull the jigs out of the plugs before the mixture has cooled off. This is a step that is important and FCS addresses it in their installation info. I usually do my FCS installs at the end of the day and let them set up and cool over night, never had the problem of fins not fitting into the plugs myself. But when an installer is paid per install and they have only so many jigs to work with they will pull the jigs as soon as the mix sets up which is a nono. I’ve said this many times, there are no bad systems, just bad installations.Aloha,Kokua
Howzit Dennis, The board I was reffering to is 11 years old and the problem started about 3 years after it was made. I’m sure the Ofish’l guys have fixed the problem but we don’t see any Ofish’l systems on Kauai made boards these days. Futures has also come and gone from here. Now it’s FCS and ProBox that are the systems being used and for some reason we aren’t having many problems with either system. Aloha,Kokua
pau…aloha and mahalo!
Hi, I really like the Speedfin system.
Easy to install.
If you hit a rock etc the fin comes out without damaging the board or box.
Good selection of fins.
And best of all, I can change fins with no tools.
Cheers
Quote:
Good post blake and more of the tech I was looking for. Funny thing about futures....They look alot like the old Star systems box from the Twin Fin era. Do you remember those. That box started as pop ins and ended up with a little tab hook holding in the fin in the rear. Fin boxes left and didn't come back for awhile afterwards. Now boxes appear to be the standard and with more alternatives. I like the idea of multiple options...especially since I mostly ride single, but still would like to switch to three or four fins without taking two boards to the beach.
More on the concept of a press fit.
When you do a hard turn, the largest force is that the fin wants to cant out towards the rail. The finbox experiences increases in force on bottom of the fin tab on the inside, and on the top of the fin tab on the outside. If the fin is a close tolerance fit, the forces are highly distributed on these two points. As the fit loosens through normal wear, the fin loosens, and the forces becomes even more concentrated.
Now, consider instead a press fit (like the Lokbox taper). As the fin is loaded, there are pressure increases at the top outside of the tab, and the bottom inside tab. But there are also pressure DECREASES on the top inside, and bottom outside. Because the press pre-loads forces on the fin, both pressure increases and decreases can bear loads. Effectively you more than double the load the fin can take. What’s more is that you “unconcentrate” the forces by pressing the fin as well, so the forces are even less than doubly unconcentrated.
This is why I say that a press fit can have better strength to weight than a non-press fit. I first studied press fits in bicycle spindle tapers (crank to spindle), which bear really incredible torque loads over very small areas.
As an engineer I can also see the strength of the box to glass mount depends mostly on the width of the box flange at the fin max camber. My boxes are 1.5 inches wide and have no problems despite having a minimal glass overlap - and the width is the key. (They are 2.25 inches long). Something with the Lokbox box design (lip and main box) with a 1.5 inch width and 2 inch length could be smaller, lighter, and stronger than current systems…there will need to be some stress relief to keep the pressing from causing spider cracks in the glass, but that’s an easy problem to solve.
Of course the footprint can be even smaller if you use both the deck and hull, like FCS and Red-X do.
I would certainly design something like that to be the best box system, and it is not very different from the current Lokbox - just a little wider and not nearly as long. The fin tab can be an 1.25 inches long and 1/2 inch deep for a 2 or 3 fin system and be plenty strong and stiff if it is pressed in place.
But I reiterate that any of the major fin systems can be installed in ways that are strong and light enough to satisfy almost all customers, and that the surfboard maker/glasser should accomodate other requests to satisfy the customer.
Quote:
the forces are even less than doubly unconcentrated.
I like this part!
In response to Blakestah re:spider racks. I’ve done extensive testing with a solid fiberglass wedge driving it into the box with a hammer to split it. It’s extremely tough and why I made the wall thicknesses what they are. Usually it takes me several very hard hits to split a lokbox. One half hearted hit with the others. I’ll post a video of it in a couple of weeks when I get back in town so you won’t have to take my word. Also you mentioned ding guys where there are a lot of Lokboxes. San diego is our biggest market and I encourage anyone to call Joe Roper. He’s the biggest repair guy here and he’s bought around 20 lokboxes from me in the last year. Cheers Jim
Quote:
so here's my layman's stupid question?what the heck ever was wrong with glass-on fins?
Glass-ons are harder to travel with. Also when I surfed rocky coast every day, I’d snap fins off once in awhile. Nice to have a stack of replacements. Glass-ons are nice though.
My friend George was surfing OB on one of his Brewer guns one day, and snapped off and lost one of his side fins. A couple days later he was in Santa Cruz and he saw a little kid walking around with a fin he found. It was a red glass-on sidefin. George told the kid he lost his fin, and the kid just handed him the one he had. It had a Brewer logo on it. George took it home and held it up to his board. Same size, same color, right side… the only difference was the color of the logo. Board fixed and good story.