An old fashioned sway locks tech discussion of fin box systems
Looking around at some of the threads about fin box systems it seems that there are quite a few available to surfers with varying degrees of expandability and adjustment… yet the only thing we see on the market or hear much about is FCS or Future systems. Are those two systems actually the best the market has to offer or were they simply the first in with the most money? What technical advantages do FCS or Futures have over the other systems or vice versa. I think many will assume that because a pro surfer is riding a certain fin set up in a magazine ad that the system he or she is riding must be the best system and the most state of the art. Is this true?
In my searches to find something unique and that offered more expandability I have run across a few….Lockbox….Red X….probox….even the old O.A.M. system that seemed to have gone away.
I guess my question to the techies out there is this:
Why are FCS and futures considered the best systems and if they are not the best systems…why aren’t Surf Shops and Magazines offering up the others systems. When I ask why….it’s not about marketing …it’s about actual quality…expandability ….adjustment…or compatibility with surfboard designs. I would love to see some technical reasons the two leaders of the industry remain at the top and do any of you see a better system that can contend for top honors as most versatile and easy to use. I realize in the end the best at marketing may win the contest for dollars and market share…but….what is the best system?
I don’t have a dog in the hunt…so I am completely open to ideas on the subject. I have my own opinions up to this point…but I hear many many different things and they all sound fine.
Red-X does seem to be going away, and according to Tom @ daum it’s because Larry Block (owner of Red-X) has kind of given up. No aggressive marketing coming from him anytime soon. Pro-box is there, and don’t think they are going away. The owners of OAM fin system have reportedly thrown in the towel and gone back to australia after losing nearly a half million dollars trying to work out the bugs. The edge system may be history as well according to Clyde Rodgers one of the owners. Not enough interest or operating capitol. I hope Clyde was just kidding when he told me that a few weeks ago at surf expo. Any interested investors should contact Clyde soon. Lokbox isn’t going anywhere, especially with Taylor Knox now part owner. It is very available in the states through Rainbow fin company info@rainbowfins.comwww.rainbowfins.comwww.lokboxfins.com (west coast) and www.rdistributing.com (eastcoast) or in europe through Mick Pratte at classicsurf@tiscali.co.uk through GK corporation mailto://gkc@kywa.jp (Japan) Chris kasperowitz 808-351-7427 (hawaii) and in about one week it will be available in OZ.
Can you give some pros and cons as to what makes the ones from your list that are left the best system…FCS…Future…probox…lockbox? Is marketing and cash the only reason FCS and futures lead the pack?
That’s a tough question really. My opinion is many surfers look for simplicity then availability. Both Probox and Lokbox are more thinking mans systems offering adjustability and versatility. But it’s definately changing. I see more and more surfers educating themselves and looking for more out of their systems. Durability seems to be more and more important especially during travel. I would probably have to agree with you that marketing and operating capitol make a big difference. Some companies put marketing in front of everything and long term that could be a mistake. We’ll see who stands the test of time…
Out of respect to the guys at Probox I think I’ll let them highlight the technical differences between their system and others. Pretty sure they post here. The technical differences between Futures and Lokbox would be adjustability and ejectability. Lokbox offers the finlok that will actually bend upon impacts allowing seperation of fin and box. I’m pretty sure no other system offers this. This makes sense on surf trips where shallow reefs are often encountered. A bent finlok can be flattened back out and a new fin installed so the board is not dry docked for the rest of the trip. Another technical difference would be the screw that threads into a metal insert allowing you to really crank down the fins without the fear of stripping anything. We use a flat head screw that can be tightened with a dime, a butter knife from your hotel room or a slew of other things that fit into the slot. No need for a special sized allen wrench. Also Lokbox has a built in horizontal curvature in the box. This can help to minimize flat spots in the rocker especially around the rear fin. It’s elliptical shape minimizes cracks forming around the box by dispersing the load from fin torque along the curve of the box. The width of the apex of the curve is slightly wider than the futures box giving it a wider footprint to hold up a fin. Think of a crane with the legs that extend outward to keep it from toppling over. The cavity portion of the box is also shorter which allows the flanges of the box to flex along with the board.
The main differences between Lokbox and FCS are adjustabilty, the footprint on the board, and the fact that the boxes are glassed over. This prevents leakage around the box which dooms many fin systems. Once water gets in it’s a matter of time before a failure occurs. The ejectability, and the flat head screw as opposed to the allen screw.
Lok box is a really nice fin system but tighening the screw down is a B!tch. That is my only gripe, but then again you do have to deal with those alan keys which strip oh, so easily with FCS and Futures. Futures highend techy fins won’t go into fcs or lokbox boxes so if you want to use those fins tough luck their box or not at all.
Also you can use FCS fins with an adapter that LokBox makes (GripIts)!
JJR, can you mount LokBox in 2# EPS? I remember the (WYD?) thread where the guy cut the glass with a utility knife then mounted the boxes
Do you need glass patches to reinforce with 2# EPS?
Janklow you always need patches regardless of which medium your installing into. Our vacuum Jig has trouble suctioning down to the lighter EPS so you’ll need to either spackle the blank first, or glass and hotcoat the deck then it will vacuum down. In a month or two we will begin offering a vacuumless Jig set-up specifically for doing EPS or just blank installs in general. Until then you can just use a utility knife if you know what your doing like this - (this was done with the old square cavity boxes which have now been updated to rounded. Everythings the same just with rounded corners)
Howzit solosurfer, I would say that the reason FCS is big is like you said it was one of the first and it is pretty easy to install plus they have deep pockets when it comes to money for promotion… I don’t think Future is as good as LokBox and the fact that you can install LokBox after the lam or the hot coat makes it an even better system, not to mention the fin selection they have is awesome. I am sorry to hear that Red-x and Edge are on the brink of going away because they both have followers that like those systems. Probox will be around due to it’s easy install and price plus it can use fins that are from other companies. I will say that the thing that really impresses me about LokBox is their vacumm jig, it is so nice to use. Aloha,Kokua
Howzit solosurfer, I would say that the reason FCS is big is like you said it was one of the first and it is pretty easy to install plus they have deep pockets when it comes to money for promotion… I don’t think Future is as good as LokBox and the fact that you can install LokBox after the lam or the hot coat makes it an even better system, not to mention the fin selection they have is awesome. I am sorry to hear that Red-x and Edge are on the brink of going away because they both have followers that like those systems. Probox will be around due to it’s easy install and price plus it can use fins that are from other companies. I will say that the thing that really impresses me about LokBox is their vacumm jig, it is so nice to use. Aloha,Kokua
Hi Kokua,
Long time no speak. I have been looking for a good system to use in the surfboards I sell that is different from FCS and Futures. I never cared for FCS since they first came out. I was one of the last to leave glass ons. Then future came out and was slightly better than FCS. Now I see other systems that seem to be even better in some ways. So…I was hoping to hear from some of the fin gurus here what they thought the actual difference between them really is. From a practical standpoint. Best I can tell…I don’t really know why FCS and futures lead the pack if the other systems live up to their claims. Both appear to be more limited than either lockbox or probox. Heck there may be other systems that exist that I have not even heard of. Do you think shapers themselves simply prefer what they are used to or do they really think one system is a better system? How about surfers…do they like to mess with fin positioning.
I do really like Lokbox for it’s many good things. That said, i would love a fin system where you can change the cant without changing the fin… That’s what i like from ProBox, BUT i like systems that can be glassed over (like Lokbox and Futures) and i do really like the tapered box, so basically i would love a Lokbox version with the possibility of changing cant.
On the other hand parts that fit into parts that fit into parts doesn’t give me too much confidence in the long run, so i think the variable cant thing it’s a hard one.
I was talking with a guy at my shop recently about the pluses of the glassed in fin box systems. Like Futures, Lokbox and Ofish’l. Because the installation process is integrated with laminating the extra step of system install is eliminated. No need for a fin guy.
For the board builder dealing with marketing reps can make a big difference in what systems get used. Cost of set up will make some difference as well.
I personally like Ofish’l. I do plenty single fins and tankers and find their 10 ½” glassed in box to be the best for me and really won’t use anything else. Unless I do a glassed on fin.
“Because the installation process is integrated with laminating the extra step of system install is eliminated. No need for a fin guy.”
This is not true. Someone still has to rout the holes, which makes them a fin guy. Some shapers rout their own holes, but not that many. Some shops have a fin guy that will rout the holes, then the laminator installs the boxes by just pushing them in, then folds the glass back over the tail and finishes the lamination. I do not recommend this type of install because usually no dummy fins are used which means he’s guessing at the fin angles. Anyone that knows anything at all about board building knows that angles can make or break a board, so be careful who’s installing your boxes. IMHO the best method is to have the same guy that routs them install them. With dummy fins! This way you get proper angles and at least the center fin straight! and an educated fin guy will deal with rockers and concaves way better than any laminator. Or at least he’ll spend more time getting it tight and right! In production shops bottom contours are all over the place. Everything under the sun. Laminators just don’t have the time to suss out every bottom and try to figure which angle to set for each different bottom. That’s why we have fin guys in the first place. We were using angle jigs to set fins properly 30 years ago. Again, IMHO installing boxes with no accurate way to set angles is not moving forward because it saves a step…it is moving back. Way back. At least design wise.
Sticking them in the foam DOES eliminate the step of applying the patches that go over the boxes. Fin guy installs them, lets them gel, then off to the laminator. Another problem is on opaques and tints. Most laminators doing color don’t want to deal with boxes in the way while laminating. Easy to mud out the color if you work the area too much. With the whole color thing coming back big time, fin guys are busier than ever.
Lokbox, You’re assuming my shop is like those you seem to talk about here. Sorry, in this case you are wrong. As well, I don’t think the guy that routes is a fin guy, of course he could be if the boxes were installed by him but, our laminator is paid for setting boxes, with fins, for proper installation.
I’m extremely particular about how work is performed in my shop. BTW, it’s not a production shop.
Note, laminating over boxes takes extra care and does add to the laminating process. My feeling is a good laminator will rise to the occasion. Being paid for the extra effort helps.
I feel this is a good discussion topic. Time for Stingray to Reverse Engineer the whole thing…Ha Ha just kidding
I do shape and glass as a hobby. I also post boards in the resources section. Repairs are my big thing…about two a month.
If you do repairs you better be set up to do FCS. Not because they are good or bad but because they are popular.
If you want help installing your LokBox just post on Swaylocks or Surfer mag. I am not set up to use LokBox but I have learned alot about surfboards from the Lokbox posts. Rainbow Fins also has one of the biggest slections of fins.
Probox also has good customer service. I have dealt with Robin via e-mail and with Larry in Torrance over the phone.
People on Swaylocks don’t talk much about O’Fish’l but one of the shapers that I do repairs for uses them. I’ve had excellent customer service ordering boxes from them.
Strenght is important to me but ease of repair is important too. FCS are by far the easy repair. But maybe they are prone to failure…
I think the best,strongest,cheapest fin box system is the Fins unlimited 10.5 channel. Sure would look funny on a Quad !!!
Hi dennis, sorry if I offended you. didn’t mean to assume. Using the word “most” is tricky…at best. Just commenting on what I’ve seen,and deal with. Your post made me stoked. Of course I know that smaller shops do it right most of the time…but the reality is many of us get boards, from shops built by production glassers. Not that that’s a bad thing because these shops really spend tons of time and money wiring the process. But to move the sport forward one must be able to experiment,and most design advancements come from the smaller guys right?.. which is why I stuck with a system that had nothing but handmade glass fins for the first 5 years of it’s existence…
How the systems are installed is a valid point. If the system is not properly installed it won’t matter how good it is or what its strong points are, all could be lost with a bad install.
Fin box or plug systems have been a good thing to board building. However, some of the shops did not adjust pay scales for the laminator as things changed from the glass on days. The cost of fin systems is a considerable chunk of the over all board material costs. Pinching labor has been a way to offset costs. In the process quick, down and dirty production can be the result.
Solosurfer,
If you’re in search of the best system…which, IMO there is no such thing…no offense intended. They all have selling points.
Failure rate statistics? Don’t know if there are any. FCS may be higher than others but, there are plenty FCS. Glass on fins fail too.
I asked an experienced surfer and builder why he used Futures over Ofish’l recently, they are very similar systems, and was told he liked Futures because the side boxes and fins were deeper and give his boards more of the glassed on feel. I didn’t press him on whether or not he did an actual test riding comparison or if his comment was just theory. In surfing perception is almost everything.
Striped screws sometimes can be problematic. Lokbox addresses that, Ofish’l has no screws. Fin selection? The deeper pockets have more selection. Though not that many surfers change out fins, or know the difference for that matter. Adjustability is a good selling point. If anything, it does promote experimentation.
In life or business, the better marketing wins better market share. The brand with the biggest market share is seldom the better product. The better product guys settle for smaller market share, avoid the hype and quietly go about the business of making good product.
and an educated fin guy will deal with rockers and concaves way better than any laminator. Or at least he’ll spend more time getting it tight and right! In production shops bottom contours are all over the place. Everything under the sun. Laminators just don’t have the time to suss out every bottom and try to figure which angle to set for each different bottom. That’s why we have fin guys in the first place. We were using angle jigs to set fins properly 30 years ago. Again, IMHO installing boxes with no accurate way to set angles is not moving forward because it saves a step…it is moving back. Way back. At least design wise.