An old fashioned swaylocks tech discussion of fin box systems

General Discussion
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So to finish things up here is what I have found so far and it would have been nice to see someone defend FCS or Futures.

If you are going to use fin systems it seems one that can expand cants and adjustments could be useful in more ways that simply experimenting with a feeling. If you have one board used primarily for hotdog waves and the surf jumps up or changes from mushbergers to top to bottom reelers…the fin cant can be adjusted to suit those differing conditions.

It seems if your looking at cost and the versitile systems…Probox has the edge, followed by lokbox. FCS does not even have those options and futures will cost you close to the price of a surfboard to have them. No one has really gotten in depth on the differences between the systems and I understand thats probably out of courtesy to other competitors.

I would love to have seen the real difference between lokbox and probox which seem to be the two best available. (Any disagreements welcome)

At this point is seems the status quo is FCS and Futures simply because of marketing…then the choice comes to which of the better systems if any one would use. For me selling surfboards…glass ons are only an option by special order. They are great when they work and don’t get snapped off and they are a bitch to ship. If I had a factory as I used to I may feel differently…but I like the option to change cant on a board for different surfing sessions. Especially for designs like Fish and other hybrids.

Thanks for all the input and more would certainly be welcome. This has been a great thread and one like the old swaylocks used to be.

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I will start to say I don’t know anything about lokbox fins so I can’t comment on them.

The choice of a fin system for a custom surfboard is totally on the customer. It’s their board and their preference. Not much to say about it.

Production shops will use something with the consideration of quality, cost, ease of placment, timing of placement, ease of repair, ability to use in all foams. Also who the owner is friends with comes into play sometimes too.

Regarding probox. I really think the idea is great regarding the fin adjustability.

So as a consumer it’s a great idea. As an installer it works fine in pu Flat bottom thrusters and side fin longboards. It takes a bit more work and prep for low density eps. Glue on jigs in my opinion is more work and the jigs can’t be set up for quads without modifying the jigs or taking an extra step doing it front set/back set at a time. Complex bottom contours and probox the shaper has to know they will be using the system so the very wide foot will not screw up the design. I would never use one on a personal board of mine.

The next thing I would like to throw out there is that pre-glass box installs are more durable in any surfboard excluding the red-x system. As a consumer, this may be of importance but they probably don’t understand pre or post glass installation ramifications.

As a board builder the pre glass installation can be very beneficial in time savings of the build and the ease of the install and the ability to have quality inspection of the install prior to glassing.

Now having said all that the ultimate box would be a pre glass install to help me the builder and have multiple fin options and durability for the comsumer.

This fins system is the SURFINZ F3 adjustable fin. It essentially is a futures pre glass install but the box can hold the sufinz fin with adjustability(front and back), hold the futures fin fixed and the fcs fixed. Also, but not manufactures recommendation, it can hold a modified(cut front) o’fish’l fin, and a modified Red-x which would have front and back adjustability.

This fin system is very well thought out and the boxes come with 2 sets of custom cut tape for glassing over and hot coating over the box. If you can install a futures you can install this box.

I do’t work for this company or represent it in any way except as a builder that I would use this system on my personal boards. It is also durable enough for tow boards.

I tried to upload some pics but the file is too big and I am too stupid to figure out how to make it smaller.

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about FCS and Futures…

Both sell at Fiberglass Hawaii or other supply stores for roughly $25 with plastic molded fins.

They achieve a balance of light weight, secure fit to the board and easy install.

If you think of what it takes to make 100,000+ units, distribute worldwide, and sell fins and boxes for $25, and be as good as they are, then you become convinced they are not doing such a bad job…there is also a design lock-in, if you change things too much, fins and boxes are incompatible…Futures got a little of this when they made their rear boxes shallower to accomodate thin tails.

And really, it would not take much for Futures or FCS to add features comparable to others wrt cant and fore-aft fin re-positioning. And when they start losing market share in key markets, they probably will. The bottom line is that they are good enough for 99% of the market not to notice a difference.

64

Hey guys-

I don’t get on here enough and since I’m such a small guy anyway, my opinion probably doesn’t weigh in vs. the regulars. It is funny, however, to see lok-box promoting, solo dissing, and few few others dealing in reality. I think nearly all the key points were addressed, but maybe not as honestly or accurately as possible.

Futures and FCS are not the leaders due to “marketing”, but to a combination of ease of use, value (to consumer and board builder), range of retail offerings (good for surfer and retailer) and foremost simplicity. Although the others systems have very valid and unique properties and niches they fill, most do not have a high enough ratio of the above mentioned benefits of Futures and FCS to really gain position in the broader retail market.

Try going to Indo and finding anything but FCS and a little Futures. Lok-Box has done a great job with their specialty (Retro and Hi-Perf Fishes, same Quads, and the odd Duck Bonzer), these all are great when weight, bulk and rigidity are not and issue. ProBox seems to be more logical than 4Way, great for design and dialing in a design, but too many parts (to change or lose) for the average surfer, board builder or retailer (remember simplicity is key). Red-X, OAM, Speed and others seemed to never get momentum for a variety of reasons, but what I remember of the past 10 years is they all seemed to hiccup one too many times and not deliver consistency needed by us.

I’ll keep my few hundred customs per year the with Futures and FCS, which both seem to be bring improvements regularly whether its their fins, boxes, plugs, whatever… I’ll bow out now and leave the rest of the commentary to the pros.

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Hey waitaminnit!!

Hey, if you’ve used them all, we are all really appreciative of your time–for myself now, what are your specific critiques of LokBox?

“Lok-Box has done a great job with their specialty (Retro and Hi-Perf Fishes, same Quads, and the odd Duck Bonzer), these all are great when weight, bulk and rigidity are not and issue.”

What is a Duck Bonzer? and why is it odd?

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What about the serendipity factor - I got a quad fish about a year ago. It worked great, but not perfect, then I started messing with the fins… every combo I could think of. Then a kid in the Arrow shop chided me for having them backwards! I tried 'em his way - it was like riding a longboard fins first! Arrgh! Then, one day I went to the Rainbow factory. They had an odd set with a cosmetc blemish - a one off demo for T&C in Hawaii; I got 'em for cheap. Serendipity. After dozens of combos, the board finally worked absolutely perfect - far beyond my first experiences. This could never happen with glass ons.

As a side note - alot of this stuff is mental for us as surfers, BUT that still matters in our quest for the perfect feeling.

Quote:

67
Quote:

solo dissing

I have not dissed one single design. I have responded to comments and made some personal observations. I guess having your own opinion is considered …dissing (whatever that word means in the english language)

68
Quote:

Hey guys-

I don’t get on here enough and since I’m such a small guy anyway, my opinion probably doesn’t weigh in vs. the regulars. It is funny, however, to see lok-box promoting, solo dissing, and few few others dealing in reality. I think nearly all the key points were addressed, but maybe not as honestly or accurately as possible.

Futures and FCS are not the leaders due to “marketing”, but to a combination of ease of use, value (to consumer and board builder), range of retail offerings (good for surfer and retailer) and foremost simplicity. The other fin systems mentioned are just as easy to use, present more value if your considering price and I think both lokbox and probox and accomodate FCS if need be. If surfers stock up on fins…then getting them shouldn’t be an issue. How many sets are you going to lose? Although the others systems have very valid and unique properties and niches they fill, most do not have a high enough ratio of the above mentioned benefits of Futures and FCS to really gain position in the broader retail market. …they don’t have the marketing yet. As for gaining market share…that stuff changes all the time in this industry. Also…the others actually have more of the above mentioned stuff with the exeption of market share.

Try going to Indo and finding anything but FCS and a little Futures. Lok-Box has done a great job with their specialty (Retro and Hi-Perf Fishes, same Quads, and the odd Duck Bonzer), these all are great when weight, bulk and rigidity are not and issue. ProBox seems to be more logical than 4Way, great for design and dialing in a design, but too many parts (to change or lose) for the average surfer, board builder or retailer (remember simplicity is key). Not to debate…but from my observations: pro box is just as simple. Future wants you to buy all their different canted fin sets at $60.00 a pop. I think it takes six sets to accomplish what probox does with it’s inserts. Probox offers inserts for about $15.00. Just a perspective…not a debate. I am not that familiar with lokbox…but they also appear to be a good fin system. Red-X, OAM, Speed and others seemed to never get momentum for a variety of reasons, but what I remember of the past 10 years is they all seemed to hiccup one too many times and not deliver consistency needed by us. FCS has earned the leadership position by being one of the first in with something new. If your talking consistency about futures…you should look at some of the photos posted earlier. They are a rehash of two other fin systems…star fin systems and California fin systems. Both of which went away only to reserface as Future fins systems. No problem…not cutting on Futures…but consistenct they are not.

I’ll keep my few hundred customs per year the with Futures and FCS, which both seem to be bring improvements regularly whether its their fins, boxes, plugs, whatever… I’ll bow out now and leave the rest of the commentary to the pros. Where are the improvements with FCS and futures now?

69

I’ve never tried Lokboxes but from what I’ve seen of them they look very easy to install. Easier than Futures which is what I’m using at the moment. I’m also assuming the vacuum jig is self leveling due to the cups being made of rubber. This would save shimming which is a bit of a pain on Futures.

70

I did a search for Surfinz , and this thread came up, I see it mentioned once, but not really any information.  Starboard windsurf boards the Quad are using FCS fins, with the Surfinz box

and I want some additional  information on the boxes , usual searches came up nothing ?