another first shape attempt thread/help please

General Discussion
1

o.k. I need a little help with shaping schedule.

preliminaries: I’ve got a blank, an outline cut out on masonite (mostly ready to go, needs some slight fine tuning), a couple videos, a couple books, about 75 filed swaylock threads, and some probox placement numbers thanks to Larry (super helpful guy - talked to me for an hour the other day about fins).

I also have some basic tools: 5.5" surform, cylindrical surform, standard sanding block with one flat and one curved side, long and flat wooden sanding block, a couple small sanding blocks made from wood with a 30 degree angle cut for rail bevels (stolen idea from swaylocks - think it was called “the tom”). Need to get sand paper, sand screen, and small block plane (easy pick-ups at home depot). I will be shaping at my shaper’s bay, using his racks, measuring devices and probably borrowing his spokeshave. He’s going to be out of town next week; I’ve got the key to his place; so, I’ll have access and will be able to do it up without being in his way. My goal is to be ready for glassing when he gets back.

board info for those interested: 5’ 6" twinzer - it’ll be about 20 7/8" wide at 3’. Nose = 16 1/2ish". Tail = 17ish". wing at 10" up from deep swallow tail with 10 1/2" between tips. 2 3/8" at thickest point. Was thinking of going single concave to vee out the tail, but I’ve changed my mind as of now and will go flat to slight vee out the tail.

I’ve got a 6’ eps blank from a local guy who makes 'em. I got a quick look at the blank today. It’s about 2 1/2" at thickest point as is; so there won’t be any thinning out of the blank aside from foiling. I noticed that the stringer is raised above and below the foam. (it’s pretty much block eps glued to a stringer with rocker cut into it).

Plan of attack/ does this sound about right?:

1.figure out where on the blank I’m going to cut out my outline (probably closer to the back of the blank), making sure that I’m going to have enough thickness towards the center of the board - all this while paying attention to the rocker and trying to fit the outline on where I’ll have to do as little tweaking to the bottum of the board as possible.

  1. without drawing the outline, cut the blank so that it’s shorter, roughly the length of the outline + a half inch or so.

  2. plane down the stringer till flush with foam.

  3. tweak rocker as needed (hoping to avoid this if at all possible/meaning hoping that existing rocker will be sufficient)

  4. take thickness out of deck as needed mostly in nose and tail, blending so that I don’t have to mess with thickness any more.

  5. draw template outline on board and cut it out a little outside the pencil mark, making sure to keep everything as square as possible. Leave swallow uncut to avoid disaster. (do I need to do the same for the wing at this point?)

  6. keeping sanding block square to the bottum, sand to the pencil mark, avoiding bumps and dips, doing the long stroke thing.

  7. Mark out where fin boxes will be.

  8. shape vee out the tail, keeping the area where the fin boxes will be flat.

  9. rail bevels on bottum of both sides.

  10. rail bevels on deck of both sides. Blend into deck

  11. round out rails.

  12. spend some extra time with the wings.

  13. cut out swallow.

15 shape swallow.

16 touch ups and sanding.

Does this sound like the/a right order for going about it? Did I miss anything?

Comments and suggestions are very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Russ

2

Looks like you’ve done your homework. What would I do differently…Probably I’d draw the outling first where you want it to sit on the blank in relation to the rocker and cut it out too. I think it would make it easier to envision where you want to go from there. From there I’d do the foil and the rest of the steps. But thats just my opinion…

3

I am in exactly the same position…what a great time for you to post your question !. I have purchased a seconds blank for ten dollars to practice with first. It is going to be used as wall decoration. The steps you outlined look exactly like what I am planning. I`m using the John Carper dvd as my basic guide. I have cut the template with 2 inches allround to spare first. This has allowed me to get the look of it straight away.

Any chance of putting up your pics ? I will try to post mine

Good Luck !

4

If you are as thorough in your shaping as you are in describing your process you’ll do fine.

My advice: throw away all those small blocks and the 5.5’’ surform.

            use a large surform and large block as much as possible.

glue two sheets of paper (#40 and #80) back-to-back to do the rails.

cut a rough outline first, no use in doing step # 5 on a square blank.

(put a straightedge across the deck on some boards you like and note

how much foam you need to take out in #5. spend a lot of time on doing

the deck roll and setting the rail foil in that step).

Have fun!

5

o.k. I think that cutting the outline first is the right way to do it. I was just worried about screwing something up; I’ll just cut it out and go real slow like.

thanks for the response.

6

thanks a bunch for the advice Mike. So, it’s settled. step 6 will replace step 2.

I’ll take your advice on using the bigger tools, and I’m definitely planning on bringing two smaller boards that I like to the shop with me for reference throughout the process. The reason for bigger tools is that I’m less likely to get bumps, dips, and inconsistency??? they encourage longer, wider shaping movements???

I’d like to hear more about your rail technique if possible. You say to glue two sheets together: is that for the entire rail shaping process - from bevels to rounding? Also, you said to use 40 and 80 - does that mean I’ll have one glued double sheet with half 40 and half 80? Or two glued double sheets - one with 40, one with 80?

As I’m sure you’re all aware, the rails seem like they will be the most difficult part of the process for a newby, but I don’t want to settle for boxy, ugly, or non-functional rails; I want them to be good.

Citysurfer, good luck to you as well. I doubt I’ll be able to do too many pictures. I don’t own a digital camera aside from the one just above the screen on my macbook (not worth the hassle of using it to document). I do have a film camera. I could take pictures of the process, get them developed, and scan them onto my computer later, then upload the process after its all done, but that seems like a lot of work to do something that’s been done before. I’ll see if I can borrow a camera, if not, I’m not worried about it. I’d probably forget to take pictures anyway; when I get focused on something, I get really, really focused.

7
Quote:

The reason for bigger tools is that I’m less likely to get bumps, dips, and inconsistency??? they encourage longer, wider shaping movements???

I’d like to hear more about your rail technique if possible. You say to glue two sheets together: is that for the entire rail shaping process - from bevels to rounding? Also, you said to use 40 and 80 - does that mean I’ll have one glued double sheet with half 40 and half 80? Or two glued double sheets - one with 40, one with 80?

Righto on the first part. If you use tools that tend to cut fair lines and don’t scrub on spots with little tools,

you’ll get a better result.

I’m sure you’ve read Barnfields’s rail band thread. You really should use a planer, but if you’re not OK with

that, the surform and block will do. The sandpaper is for after the banding. One full sheet 40, one full sheet

  1. Spray the hell out of the backs of both pieces with contact cement and stick together. Bend it a little to

‘‘break it in’’ before using. Do the upper part of the rail first, 40 grit side of the paper, your hand cupping

the paper slightly to blend the upper rail into the deck. Use the 80 side, now cupped in your hand even more,

to do the bottom rail (long sweeps fading to zero at nose and tail). Careful on the bottom. This’ll leave you

with the upper rail and bottom rail roughed and a tapered square section in between. Use the 80 side, now

fully cupped and wrapped around the whole rail to blend it all until the square is gone. That will get you close

to done. Finish however you like. You’ll see how the back-to-back paper, when cupped, refuses to cut an unfair line.

8

thanks Mike that helps a lot. yeah I’ve got Barnfield’s thread filed - I plan to read it again before I start.

I admit I’m a bit scared to use the planer - not because I don’t like power tools - I love power tools; I just have a tendency toward imprecision with them unless cutting a straight line which is not an option here.

Your sandpaper techniques sounds really good. I’ll give it a shot for sure. Aside from encouraging a fair line, I imagine that another strength of that technique is you have to get close to the blank and feel the curves allowing you to spot and feel inconsistencies that need correction.

9

I forgot to advise you to practice a little on scraps or your off-cuts to get the feel of the

sandpaper, and other tools as well.

For others that might see this, this is my EPS technique, I do use screen on PU. Screen

sucks on EPS, it likes paper much better. You can use the back-to-back paper on PU, but

it’s usually only needed there for really thick boards, IMO.

10

You might have already done this but the absolute first thing is to make sure the stringer is straight, on both sides of the board. It’s your baseline for everything else you do so if its tweeked you should know where and by how much. You can’t fix it but it won’t drive you crazy when you go to measure for your outline.

Then turn the bottom side up and run a level along the bottom to see if there are any twists. Probably won’t be any and you’re good to go. If there are some wobbles you’ll want to fix them before you start diddling with the rocker.

11

thanks for the advice LeeV.

If everything’s symmetrical and level and if the rocker is acceptable, is it a good idea to run the long sanding block along the length of bottum anyway? I know with Pu blanks, you have to skin the blank. I don’t think that’s really necessary with eps, but is there something at all akin to that tough pu skin on the eps blank that needs to be removed?

12

I’m a poly guy so I don’t know. I don’t recall hearing anyone skinning eps though.

13

Unless the hotwire job was perfect you’re going to have to block sand the whole bottom.

You’re putting V in the tail, you’ll have to blend that in anyway. There’s no skin, but the

hotwire leaves the foam with a ‘‘shine’’ on it, you’ll be able to see the difference in the

sanded and unsanded areas as you go.

Pad your block a little and use coarse (36 or 40) to start, it’ll break that shine easily and not

leave as many trails. You’ll find out how the corners on the block will want to leave marks.

Grab a round powerpad (soft) and handsand with it to finish if the rectangular block is giving

you trouble.

Good call on checking the stringer, etc., LeeV. It’s been so long since I shaped an EPS blank

with a stringer I forgot all about that.

14

thanks again Mike.

15

checked the blank out the other day as LeeV suggested. All’s straight with the stringer.

Looked at the blank for a while and did some measurements of rocker and thickness to decide where to place my outline. Held a trusted board next to the blank to help find a good spot and marked the nose and tail starting points on the blank. Didn’t have much time; so I left it as is.

Had a few hours with the blank after work today. I redid everything I did last time (double-checking), drew the outline and started cutting with one of those japanese hand saw thingies. I was staying about 1/4" outside the line just in case. Good thing because I didn’t like my progress once I got about half way through with one side. Pulled out a big ole hand saw and tried with that for a couple strokes - didn’t like that either. I saw a jig saw and plugged her in. Don’t know if that’s a standard way of going about it, but it worked best for me (worked best when cutting out my template too) - so much for no power tools. Still managed to go about 1/8" or so outside the line.

Worked on half of my outline with a sanding block and 40 grit; didn’t like the 40 grit (maybe I was applying too much pressure); went with some 80 grit and liked it much better. Used the block mostly - checked squareness often. Apparently I was pressuring heavy one the marked side a lot - had to correct. Found myself ditching the block and using the paper itself stretched by my fingers and thumbs - then went back to the block. Also tested out the surform (got the long one) - liked it okay but block worked better as I like to go slow; I was very happy with the wing I shaped in using the cylindrical surform. I also went at the stringer on the bottum (as a break from sanding and because the raised stringer was throwing off my use of the square) with a mini-plane. I did okay, but noticed some rippage on the foam surrounding the stringer - oops - nothing too disastrous. Hopefully it just sands out when I do the bottum.

All in all - I’m learning what works and what doesn’t. One side of the outline is about 90% done. Worked about 2 hours total - I’m probably not cut out for production shaping!!

Tomorrow after work I’ll finish off that half and go at the other half - that’s my goal for the day - no need to rush things. If I got time. I might go at the stringer on the deck with the min-plane for more practice - probably should have done that first anyway as the deck’s not as crucial…next time.

I got Tuesday and Wednesday off. Got a few errands to run, but aside from that I got Tuesday penciled in as bottum and foil day. Wednesday’s gonna be rail day. I work late on Thursday - so that morning will be blending and finishing day.

STOKED!!!

Two main observation:

A. Need to learn how to use the power planer - maybe on next board.

B. This is an absolute blast. I’m hooked - bye bye future pay checks.

16

Glad you’re having fun, that’s the most important part! What you’re going to find is that there’s lots of ways to do things, different shapers have different techniques. As long as the results are OK, it’s just a matter of finding what works best for you. Using the jigsaw to cut the outline is one of the ‘‘accepted’’ methods.

Fairing that cut with 80 grit is going to take longer, but if it’s what feels right on your first one, so be it. Make sure you keep it

square, though (the block helps), check that often and look at the deckside to verify. I wouldn’t advise the surform at this stage

for anything other than taking down a really high spot. If you see a ‘‘dip’’, take down either side of it, don’t hit the low part.

When planing the stringer, you have to work with the grain in the wood. That means on the deck you’re planing nose to center, tail to center; on the bottom, center to nose, center to tail. If you plane against the grain you’re asking for trouble. If the foam is chewing it could also be that the blade’s not sharp.

17

Well, I’ve made quite a bit of progress on shape #1.

Last night I finished up the outline, triple checked all the measurements, made some corrections, and checked for squareness of rails, made more corrections, checked measurements again, etc.

I made friends with my 36 grit. It’s a matter of technique - can’t push too hard.

So, I placed a straight edge on the stringer (bottum up) to check out my rocker again, compared that with a similarly sized board that I like.

Blank had something like 3" nose rocker and 1 1/2" tail rocker (all real gradual like). The board I compared it with had about half an inch more in both directions. I didn’t want to add that much, but I wanted to add some. So, I made a 3/8" mark on the front of the stringer; once again, didn’t really know how to go about it, but I just started hacking away at the stringer with my surform, mostly stayed within the first 12" of the board, mainly wanted some nose flip since I ride a lot of shallow beach breaks. Essentially what I had was a groove down the middle of the nose so I could just sand the foam to the stringer - worked pretty well. I did the same thing with the tail, but I didn’t add much at all - about 1/4" - a little more gradual than in the front. I made friends with my mini planer as well.

Note for first timers - the mini planer is less likely to rip the foam if the foam is sanded down a little bit around the stringer - i.e planing to get flush with the foam rather than planing to create depth.

This morning, after finishing up the rocker, I sanded and planed until the bottum looked smooth and bumpless. Then, I pulled out the level and checked nose to tail at about 12" increments for levelness - also tried my hand at using the shadows for this, but I haven’t developed that sort of eye yet - I’ll trust the level. Levelled out the board.

Then added about 1/8" accelerating vee through the back 8.5" of the tail (just behind where my fin boxes will go). Sanded the whole bottum again (lightly using 80 grit at this point).

then I measured thickness throughout blank as well as my comparison board. Flipped blank over, planed and surformed and planed stringer down to foam.

I made a mark on the stringer from midpoint to widepoint where I didn’t want to lose to much thickness. I then made a mark about 1" from bottum of tail stringer and 1/2" from bottum of nose stringer. My goal was to sand and plane the deck flat to these lines.

This required removing 1 1/2" or so of material up towards the nose. Started with the 36 grit and planer and surform - quickly realized it was going to take forever. Saw the power planer up on the wall - got a really good/bad idea.

I’ve recently watched a lot of video of dudes using these things; so my goal was to mimic what I saw and just take a little material out of the nose area.

I did this successfully, but it looked like a disaster. I probably took about 1/4" of material out with the planer in all. I went back to the 36 grit, cleaned it up, and took the slow route. When I was happy with the nose, I did the same with the back half of the board, no planer this time - didn’t trust it at this point. I took my time. Once I was fairly happy with the tail, I worked the whole deck from tail to nose, nose to tail until it was reasonably flat. Then, proceeded with the 80 grit, doing the same thing. Pulled out the level again, leveled it all out. Used a torpedo level to check that the deck was flat through the tail, made some adjustments. Sanded and planed the whole deck again from nose to tail with 36 then back to the 80. Checked for levelness again and re-measured everything (outline, rocker, thickness in various spots) to make sure I’m good for the rails. Then, I drew in the swallow tail, used a short, curved piece of masonite I found in the shop ( I imagine that’s what Dave (shaper) uses it for ).

It’s totally foiled. I’m freaking stoked!! The board is looking good.

Tomorrow I’ll get to work on the rails, then cut out swallow, work on that, and if I have time, I’ll finish it all up.

Question: what’s the proper procedure for finishing? Sanding with 120 grit and a padded block?

18

Lots has been done since last post. I started with the fred tool on the bottum, shaped in the bottum rail bevel starting somewhere just in front of the wing.

To keep symmetry, I worked on both sides of the blank at once. I went from tail to nose on one side then from nose to tail on the other side then back to the nose on that side then nose to tail on the other side. This way, I was cutting the rails evenly on both sides. This worked well.

When I was happy with the bottum bevels, I did the same with the top. I started with the fred tool to get a good angle going with the bevels, then I kept going with a microplane surform blade (just the blade) until the band looked about right. I pretty much just eyeballed it, occassionally pulling out the square for measurements to makes sure that I was keeping it all even. I constantly looked at the top of the bottum rail bevel to make sure that the bottum of my top rail bevel was following the same line. I added a blending bevel about halfway between the first bevel and a a couple of inches towards the stringer. Rounded out the rails using mostly 80 grit.

Notes: I started using 50 grit but didn’t like the way it was tearing the foam; 80 seemed to work better for me. I also found that the microplane blade by itself worked a lot better for me than the full surform tool with a regular blade (also seemed to tear the foam a lot).

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to mark the board so I’d have a marker for making the rail bevels, but in the end, I just eyeballed it and followed the pre-existing lines in the outline.

After done with the rail (took a long time), cut out the swallow with a small coping saw. Ideally, you’re supposed to nail the cut with a perfect V in the stringer; I didn’t. In fact I was way off. I spent a lot of time fixing this. I tried my round surform. I tried rolled up sandpaper. I made some errors throughout this process and ended up having to alter the tail a bit to make it work. To fix my mistakes in the v of the swallow, I ended up using a pencil with some 80 grit wrapped and taped to it. Once I got the outline of the tail somewhat correct; I returned to the round surform a bit to help take down the stringer that was poking out on top and to make room for shaping the upper side of the swallows. Shaped the upper sides out like mini-rails and commenced to finish work.

While taking down the stringer with the mini-plane I ran off the stringer on the bottum and gouged one side of the swallow a bit. OOOPS!. I was absolutely pissed because I’d been very careful up to this point.

Anyway, I wanted my shaper to see the board before I proceeded with spackling. Good thing, I thought that I had the rail pretty thin. When he saw the board, he said that it looked good except that the rails looked too thick. So, I made two new rail bevels and redid the the rails. Then re-blended the rails into the deck and refinished sanding.

I think the board is now ready for spackling, but I wanted to take a break an come at it with fresh eyes another day. So, I’ll head back in (probably on Monday) for finishing and spackling.

Do to my mini-disaster with the tail and some alterations made to the nose (adding some extra flip and thinning it out), the board is about 5’ 5 1/2" instead of 5’ 6". Other than that, the board looks really good. I’m stoked and ready to get to the glassing stage.

This is a blast; although, I’ve become a bit obsessed with the project (and I’m already thinking about future projects - could be a new addiction).

19

I took my time and then some on the glassing. I won’t go into detail about the glassing process. I did receive a lot of direction from my shaper throughout the glassing and sanding process.

Anyway, the board is done, and I’m absolutely stoked as I’ll get to test the board out in Jamaica next week.

Just wanted to say thanks to MikeDaniel, LeeV, and foamdust for their help on this thread and to the greater swaylocks community in general, and big thanks to Larry at probox for helping me out with fin placement.

Here’s a link to some pics I took with my mac (I don’t have a real digital camera - so the pictures suck):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10338424@N05/2676386450/in/photostream/

20

Looks good! Clean outline, even with the bumpwings thrown in there for extra difficulty.

IMO you should have taken out more foam in the crack and thinned those tips, but the

fact that the board’s a 5’5’’ will mitigate that somewhat. Enjoy the testing in Jamaica!