Aquafiend65 asks Barnfield "who are the innovators, Backyarders or Pros?

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Hey Bill,

1.) Would you say that the greatest innovations/contributions to surfboard design and construction techniques are coming from the “backyarder” or the “pro” shaper? I’ve always thought outside the “envelope” and from what I’ve seen here on Sway’s that seems to hold true for many, if not most of us…But that doesn’t necessarily translate into trend setting. But then we’re still young and it remains to be seen how this community might affect the “industry”.

2.) What are some of the innovations to A.) design, and B.) construction techniques you see coming?..

Wow! Those are big questions Gary. They are also incredibly delicate to answer. Can we handle the responsibility of analyzing ourselves?? Here are some thoughts on your question #1. We can talk about #2 also but please put it into a new thread as it will likely need plenty of space to grow.

#1… The existence of a forum like this, requires a certain belief in it and the community it fosters. By that I mean, that if backyard board builders didn’t believe that what they were doing was significant or at least relevant, they wouldn’t be doing it or spending a lot of time talking about it on forums like this. To create the feelings of significance, one has to have a way to compare themselves with others. The others, in this case are, as you said wind up being the “pros”.

Because of this human need for relevance, it is very easy for, in this case the backyard community, to begin taking itself too seriously. Or to find ways to make the other guys, in this case the “pros” less significant.

We all know it feels good to feel significant. And it feels way better to actually BE significant. Therefore, there is a very strong drift in a community to establish that what the community is doing is tangibly significant. But there is an inherent problem in this and as an industrial designer you are well aware of it. Normally, to be significant one has to be significant to others. Yet if the “others” are stuck in a rut, then one’s contributions, tho truly significant, won’t be recognized as such by the “others” do to their inability to recognize it because of the rut they are in.

There is a certain magic to finding success in spite of this dilemma. If as a designer, you are too far ahead, you may not get wide spread acceptance of your designs. If you are too far behind you will look to be copying or at the best not appropriately fashionable. Can you say "old school’. Ha!

Since this forum is about surfboard making, the human nature tendency will be toward a community perception, that the surfboard making taking place in the community be superior to that done in other communities. Hence, your question…rephrased by me… Who is more significant…Us or Them?

I am not sure if it is safe, when in the “us” community, to even try to determine who wins that contest.

I suppose it comes down to how we judge success. More money? More hot riders riding our boards? More units sold? More fame? Who came up with the idea first? Who got it working first? Who made it more popular? Quality of life? Who is having more fun? Or simply who has the most self esteem and character, regardless of the aforementioned standards of judgment.

If we get clear on these issues and why we do what we do anyway and then get comfortable with who we are in the game and what role we play, then maybe we can begin to analyse what design elements really matter and where they came from. But I am afraid that rarely are people comfortable enough in the roles they play that they can honestly consider such things without emotions getting out of control.

Tell me about some recent innovations/contributions that you are aware of that came from the backyard guys? Some I mean that have made it to the mainstream.

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Hey Bill,

1.) Would you say that the greatest innovations/contributions to surfboard design and construction techniques are coming from the “backyarder” or the “pro” shaper? I’ve always thought outside the “envelope” and from what I’ve seen here on Sway’s that seems to hold true for many, if not most of us…But that doesn’t necessarily translate into trend setting. But then we’re still young and it remains to be seen how this community might affect the “industry”.

I’m not Bill , obviously … but this is only my personal thoughts / gut feeling reaction … me making boards ‘outside the envelope’ [which one exactly?] , does not translate into trend setting or even neccessarily “functionality” [word?] for me , personally . What I mean is , I want to explore different designs , techniques and fin setups for my own curiousity to be satisfied , and [perhaps] to keep me interested in surfing after many [earlier] years of riding “conventional” equipment . Innovation…" bring in novelties, make changes" [definition from the pocket oxford dictionary.] I don’t presume to be innovative or to be contributing to surfboard design on even a local, let alone global , scale [that would be hard for me to do , having only ever made 16 boards over a 20 year period !!] … Although I guess George Greenough and a handful of others HAVE over the last century or so ? How would the innovations / contributions be gauged / judged , I wonder ? …In terms of improved board performance , more fun had , and / or $ made [as Bill has hinted] ? What do each of us contribute to surfboard design and construction techniques ? With people like Greg Loehr and Bert Burger and several others here , it is clearly seen . Me personally … [scratch head , shrug] … But I’m okay with that . The last thing I would do is compare myself with a pro shaper . I hope I’m inspired / challenged by them , as well as others on this forum , but I tend to feel both “backyarders” and “pros” have [a] role[s] to play in terms of innovation and contributions . Perhaps because plebs like me don’t have team riders or reputations to worry about , I may be more “freed up” to experiment ALL the time , if I want , but I still find myself coming back to what works and has been proven over the years for the sort of waves I ride here . The search for a better design / refinements to [make] boards that work better for me may mean I want / need a board that functions more than it is “innovative” . I hope this is making sense ? I guess what I am trying to say here is : bottom line …what board works best for me / you / us , and why ? And, the refinements that can make it even better …be it different materials , construction techniques, whatever …I guess they are “innovations” , to some extent ? ben

Nicely said Ben.

I am a very competitive person. I strive for excellence all the time. Often to a fault. It can border on obsessive compulsive behavior. Well…heck…winning is fun and way better than losing. Ha!

Still the real satisfaction and value in any endeavor is understanding who you are in it, and why it matters to you. And being comfortable where you are at, even though you may not be willing to accept or be willing to stay at that point.

You sound like you have a good grasp of this and that is, not only a very good thing, it is a rare thing.

thanks for the encouragement Bill !

Much to his credit , “Hicksy” [whose garage I frequent ], strives to do the best job possible on all his surfboards.

Hopefully , he inspires / challenges me to lift my standards , as well as I challenging him about what will work “best” for us in the surf here … and also us finding different [? better ? ] ways of doing things…

ben

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How would the innovations / contributions be gauged / judged , I wonder ? …

BY BECOMING “MAINSTREAM”…IF MARIANAS TRENCH-LIKE BONZER CHANNELS BECOME MAINSTREAM, WE KNOW WHERE THEY ORIGINATED FROM;)…

The last thing I would do is compare myself with a pro shaper…

YOU MEAN YOU’RE NOT A PRO?!?!?!?!?

i’M CRUSHED. I WANT MY CARBON BACK!!!

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON’T SPONSER TEAM RIDERS?!?!?!? CAN ANYONE SAY HASSLEHOFF AND SPONGE-BOB? YOU’RE JUST TO MODEST.


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1.) Would you say that the greatest innovations/contributions to surfboard design and construction techniques are coming from the "backyarder" or the "pro" shaper?

This is a truly complicated question.

Quick stab. It seems like it has to be both. Though I would claim that many innovations are brought to the mainstream by “pros” who may not have necessarily invented them (The C-5 may be one of them). This is a very common practice in the commercial realm. The commercial entity gradually emerges at the “inventor” and the actual innovator is forgetten (or ripped off).

Another stab. Where do you really draw the line between “backyarder” and “pro.” Aren’t alot of backyarders actually pros? Pro is short for “professional” and if you are (or at least attempting) to make a living making boards, I’d say that makes you a pro.

Another stab. What’s an “innovation?” Does it have to be an improvement on design or could it be a commecial innovation such as CAD applications to surfboard design and construction? Who gets credit for that? (Personally, I’d predict the innovations in the next 10 years will be materials.)

TOO…MUCH…COFFEE…must…stop… … .

But seriously…

As a proffessional designer/model maker I occasionally come across “amateurs” who make me feel like an amateur.

They have some insights or ingenuity that I envy and have often adopted…

I can imagine that there have been many instances where Pro shapers have done the same. Of course that doesn’t mean it sets the world on fire and becomes mainstream…But I would imaging that there are instances when it has.

My original question is what is the perspective of a long standing pro shaper, still very much involved in the industry?

Do some/most/any pro’s see the backyarders as a “farmsystem” for ideas, techniques, and talent???

Which brings up another question…do “Backyarders” look to the pro’s for any of those things???

Quite honestly, and no disrespect meant to Bill or any of the other fine individuals who actually are “pros”, The kinds of things that I strive for in my boards require me, for the most part, to look to other industries. Sway’s is full of priceless information for…after a certain point though, with the exception of a few, I don’t find the information I am looking for to make my next board better than my last…But the “envelope” that I push is probably very different than most. I am more interested in material/tech extremes and aesthetics, niether of which will neccessarily contribute to the surf industry as it currently exists…

Of course maybe the 10-15 guys who twist my brain and keep me up at night trying to figure out what they’re saying are “pro’s”…(no I am not talking about Ambrose’ posts)…

I wouldn’t underestimate the pro shapers. How could a pro shaper who still rips and is passionate about surfing resist experimenting and try to make the ultimate board? It’s rare and it isn’t a big window of time that a person can have accumulated extensive shaping experience + be a talented surfer + still be physically fit + be open to new design/materials, but they are out there. Just because the rack full of boards they produce for the shop are basically standard equipment doesn’t mean they aren’t experimenting with their own boards and doing progressive research.

…die hard…>

…is a gift

…freedom to fail

…>.tenacity …to

…often comes from

…create

…freedom to

…>.prove the validity

…>…of another hairbrained daydream

…>…or

…>…L

…,blanket…everything…new…comes…>…O

security…from …>…F

…commercial…outside the loop…>…T

…>…Y

…is the viable…inside the loop…

…or noose…>>>…IDEAL

…ambrose…

in hopes of contributing to Aqua’s disturbed sleep

every thing starts out a dream

the dream is not regulated property

laws make outlaws

manifesting the dream is

oour common goal

let us dream as one

seperately

to

attain

the

greatest

communion… with the higher self

aloha on lahina noon

…ambrose…

rick holt tole me that’s today…

Howzit Brose, I wonder how many non islanders know just what Lahina noon is, Should we tell them. I wasn't aware today was the day,guess we need to thank Rick for the reminder.Aloha,Kokua

anybody can be an innovator, they just have to try.

i saw a real interesting stick a few months ago…this is Bruce Grimes, owner/shaper of Prime Surfboards out of Satellite Beach, FL. he’s holding his 5’10" “Epoxy Aguja Fish.” yeah it works, he rips on it.

For Fiend…

All rulers of worlds and great innovators pass through the charnel grounds and make choices of consequence with regards to being and mindfulness. Everything that disgusts us, everything we fear, hate or despise, must be recognized as fundamentally pure and it’s essence liberated.

The fundamental truth of living your life on this planet, in the physical realm, bound by gravity and life force needs of sustenance is one of enslavement to THE physical survival requirements. The garage is as good a place as any to start your journey to enlightenment/professionalism.

Left brain rules and regulations and zoning were invented by rich or powerful land holders and keepers of indentured servants and slaves that needed their status quo reality to stay in place through a forceful subjugation of the labor force.

Sleep tight.

For Bill…

For Those Who Stay Behind

I am leaving now.

I am leaving now to my home among the stars.

I am leaving now.

I am leaving now for my story is done.

You who stay behind please remember we have been family before and will again - stay your pain.

For you who stay behind, I thank you for all you’ve done and especially for having faith in me.

You honor me by letting me go home to that starry and stormy place we all know so well.

I am leaving now and want you to know that I know way, I am never alone.

Infinite breath, infinite truth, Creator’ delight - Compassion guides my spirit.

Be at peace, be at peace and believe that in the space of infinite events you who stay behind have been my sacred gift.

Little Crow - 1/20/97

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anybody can be an innovator, they just have to try.

i saw a real interesting stick a few months ago…this is Bruce Grimes, owner/shaper of Prime Surfboards out of Satellite Beach, FL. he’s holding his 5’10" “Epoxy Aguja Fish.” yeah it works, he rips on it.

Good ole Brucie!! Looks like he took the outline off of one his old spectrum airbrush tape offs. He’s been doing those step decks for quite some time now. I’m sure he rips on that thing knowing Bruce. Tell him Claudes friend Jimmy said there’s still a major shortage of qualified airbrushers here in so cal. His kid should be old enough by now.

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…ambrose…

in hopes of contributing to Aqua’s disturbed sleep

http://www.sleepcoinc.com/ …backatcha

Kokua,

Yesterday was the day (15July05). The day before that (14July)I was shadowless at 1220 hrs and a full circle rainbow around the sun on the N.S. Oahu.

Regaurding innovators- I thought all the good ideas came not from the backyarders or pros but from the frontsiders and backsiders, AKA ths surfers or users of the products.

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For Fiend...

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Left brain rules and regulations and zoning were invented by rich or powerful land holders and keepers of indentured servants and slaves that needed their status quo reality to stay in place through a forceful subjugation of the labor force.

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Thanks Daddio for the thoughts regarding my mom’s passing.

All is well

But I have a question Daddio. Are you really serious about your quote above. Do you honestly think that Zoning restrictions are designed to subjugate the “little” guy?

I was thinking that they are there to protect the little guy from the “Rich” guys who could otherwise overrun their homes and neighborhoods turning them into industrial hell holes, were it not for the zoning laws against it.

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For Fiend…

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Left brain rules and regulations and zoning were invented by rich or powerful land holders and keepers of indentured servants and slaves that needed their status quo reality to stay in place through a forceful subjugation of the labor force.

Snip

Thanks Daddio for the thoughts regarding my mom’s passing.

All is well

But I have a question Daddio. Are you really serious about your quote above. Do you honestly think that Zoning restrictions are designed to subjugate the “little” guy?

I was thinking that they are there to protect the little guy from the “Rich” guys who could otherwise overrun their homes and neighborhoods turning them into industrial hell holes, were it not for the zoning laws against it.

Just one slight correction to your quote…it’s the “Rich, selfish, unethical, guy” emphasis on selfish and unethical but not “Rich” :slight_smile:

One man’s, “I came, I saw, I conquered,” is another cultures, “They came we showed them all of our treasures, and how we live as a community of spiritual - earth connected people, and they beat the crap out of us…”

It’s not that I am serious about that statement it’s just another point of view, one that would be drowned out in any city planning commission meeting or when they divide the states up into voting blocks and then you pick which candidate will best serve your communities interest. So tell me Arnold, how is buying a huge SUV or big truck, while taking money away from education, helping??

The good red road is an ass kicker, cause you are aware of all that is the sacred circle (different points of view) or contained in the medicine wheel. There is no argument here with you, and I am not trying to make one on this thread. I am just a humble man who is more than thrilled that you have signed on and are sharing your knowledge about surfboard building from a personal and experienced viewpoint.

If you don’t raise a fuss, I won’t…

Zoning laws are government regulated restrictions on how a particular piece of land can be used. The zones can be of any type, including housing, financial, and industry. These laws are at least partially an attempt to solve a very real problem. If people buy a house in a residential area, they do not want a loud or polluting factory to be opened next door to them. The problem is not the creation of a factory, per se. It’s the damage done to the original owners. A house becomes unusable if the sound, smell, or air quality around it is suddenly changed.

Zoning laws are a heavy-handed remedy for this problem, though. Nuisance laws have existed long before zoning laws, and remedy the problem more directly. Zoning laws are merely a method of increasing power in the hands of bureaucrats. They are a direct violation of property rights . Through the use of force, they can specify how people can or cannot use their property.

Nuisance laws, on the other hand, only apply when there is a conflict between two parties. They specify that if one person, by the legitimate use of their property, disrupts the legitimate use of property by another, he must cease and/or pay restitution. If however, the person who is claimed to be disrupting others was there first, practicing the same behavior, then he can continue. An example is a pig farmer who stinks up the surrounding area. If he lives out away from the rest of the world, he is not disturbing anyone. If others move out to live near him, and then complain about the smell, they have to live with it. He was there first.

Thus, an objective, proper standard of evaluation is possible under nuisance laws. Zoning laws, though, are necessarily arbitrary. If someone wants to start a factory in an area, and none of the neighbors who it would directly affect mind (and they may even want him to), he may still be disallowed by zoning laws. They are non-objective, arbitrary power. Inevitably the power gets abused.

The major abuse is called “city planning”. The bureaucrats decide that they can better our lives through central planning. They proceed to zone and re-zone areas, violating the rights of the citizens, and disrupting the lives of anyone who doesn’t fit into their plan. The goal or theme of the plans differ over time. Currently, the theme is “fighting urban sprawl”, which means forcing everyone to live in the city instead of in the suburbs, where there is more room, privacy, and scenery.

Capitalism whether it’s out of your neighbors garage or at the local surf shop…

Those who view the disparity between rich and poor as an indication of tragedy usually want to rectify the situation. But the only means to achieve egalitarianism in a world where each man has equal rights but unequal ability is to trample those rights. The only tool available is force . And no amount of force will make men more able, force can only make men less able. The only means of making “the poor” successful under capitalism is to destroy the rich. But because wealth is created and consumed individually, this won’t make anyone better off for long. You can kill or rob a successful man and live off of the fruits of his labor for a while, but you will have killed the tree, and once those initial fruits are gone, there are no more where those came from unless you find a new victim to rob. This is a pyramid scheme that can only end in death for all.

The truth is that the wealthier those around you are, the better off you are. This is very important. The more wealth your neighbors have, the more they can buy. The economies of scale drive prices down, increasing your standard of living, and decreasing your cost of capital so you can increase your productivity and further increase your standard of living. One man possessing enormous wealth does in no way negatively affect any other people, unless he uses that wealth as a means to initiate force.

The saying should be: the rich get richer and the poor get richer . Everyone gets richer under capitalism where they are free to do so.

Reason and Passion

The belief in the reason/passion dichotomy has a number of causes. The first is the belief that to be truly objective, you must be impartial and not influenced by emotion. If you feel strongly about an issue, it is taken as a sign that you cannot be rational about it. If this were true, it would be enough to sever reason and passion. Fortunately, reason need not be sacrificed to emotion And emotion need not conflict with reality.

A second cause of the reason/passion dichotomy stems from the mind/body one. It is the belief that the physical and mental world are separate and opposite. People consider passion as very worldly. It shows an emphasis on our lives and the world around us. It screams, “This is important!” Passion is powerful. We use it for emotions that are based on value-judgments. Whether it’s love or hate, joy or anger, we experience it in response to what is important in our lives.

Reason, on the other hand, is often considered abstract. As with the Scholastics arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin, it is seen as interesting, but not particularly relevant. It is seen as “other worldly” and more of a form of amusement than anything practical. Philosophers through history have encouraged this belief by making a life out of pointless “reasoning”, all the while achieving nothing and not even practicing what they preach.

Reason and passion are not opposites though. In fact, they are complementary and properly go together. An emotion is a programmed, automated response to a particular value-judgment. The value-judgment is determined by reason. Properly, reason and passion align and mutually reinforce each other. A solid reasoning provides increased strength to the passion, removing any subconscious doubts. A strong passion provides perspective on what is important, and allows a more focused reasoning. It keeps you focused on what’s really important.

Passion without reason is a flight of fancy. It has no support from the mind, which leaves lingering doubts. An emotion can never be as strong when it defies reason. Reason fights against it, dissolving it over time. Those who claim they feel passion without reason are merely claiming that they are impervious to the effects of reason.

Reason without passion is equally implausible. If one really has acquired an understanding of something important, the passion should follow from the reasoning. Only when the “reason” is rationalistic, non-integrated and undigested can it be devoid of emotion. If someone claims that something is crucial to your life and well-being, but can’t get excited about it, it is a sign that he doesn’t actually grasp the idea.

From:

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com

back to the innovator question…

“Because of this human need for relevance, it is very easy for, in this case the backyard community, to begin taking itself too seriously.”

as a man thinks, so shall he become…or so the all mighty ‘they’ say.

the wise man realises that he knows nothing

why cant we be friends…is another good one

i am obviously an isolated individual here in the bahamas. after all, there is no surf here right? but, bill, i think you are speaking very truthfully, and we can all use a touch of modesty. at least from time to time.

as far as the mainstream ‘stealing’ ideas as one person mentioned, isnt imitation the sincerest form of flattery? credit should be given where it is due, but did we get into this to be famous, or because it allows us the freedom to create, and follow our passion - surfing? sure, i would be pissed if my quadruple concave to vee, to channel bottom, 10 fin idea starting showing up as bignameboardbuilders idea - no offense. but, like musicians, there’s always someone there to cover your song, or pirate it. its an inherent risk in the creative realm. we need to accept it.

although no one is going to steal my ideas, because they suck