How much actual SURFING experience should a SHAPER have?! (let the games begin!)…
How much actual SURFING experience should a SHAPER have?! (let the games > begin!)…>>>> You have asked a great question, here’s my view. When you combine the knowledge and experience (say 30+ years)in the water with an ability to use your hands as an extension of your mind and you also include surfing all types of waves in different locations around the world , I feel you have a complete craftsman. Some names that come to mind ,Simon Anderson, Bob McTavish,Rusty Preisendorer,Al Merrick,Pat Rawson,Bill Johnson,Steve Walden,and many others.There is also a common thread to shaper’s such as these, they are more importantly designers with the ability to create something new. sk
Aren’t there well known shapers out there that don’t necessarily surf that well, but are able to convert the feedback they get from others into sound shaping/design concepts? I thing that is what separates a good shaper from a great one - the ability to work with other’s experiences and perspectives and let that augment their own. I think that is the X factor, not how many different places you have surfed and for how many years. It is how tuned in you are to others as well as yourself.
Allow me to add Stu Kenson, premier “ghost shaper” for a number of big name companies (Dewey Weber to name a big one.) That said, while I appreciate a well rounded (experienced) surfer/shaper - Dave Parmenter and Cole Simler also come to mind, any competent “pattern maker” from the airline, automotive or wood working professions should be able to produce an exacting shape to blueprints with virtually no surfing experience. Then there’s the (dare I bring it up) computer. IMO, it oftentimes boils down to a slick sales presentation to a young, impressionable audience (Average-Joe Surfer.)
What an excellent question! “Experience” is a very complex issue: Can a shaper be considered experienced without traveling widely? Should a shaper be expected to surf at least as well as his clients? Are a shapers abilities to see, listen, understand, remember and translate, equally important as having the trained, manual skills of a craftsman? What relevance should be given to those who continue to shape from experience and wisdom, but no longer surf because of illness, injury, age or financial concerns? In a broader sense, is an athletic coach less valuable after he can no longer play (or even demonstrate) the game as he once did in his prime? Thankfully, the world is full of those who are exceptions to the rules... I believe the final proof lies in a shapers ability to create surfboards that work well… and every so often, even make a few that seem to have a life of their own. If this subject ever becomes a numbers and consistency game, machines have already won.
Aren’t there well known shapers out there that don’t necessarily surf that > well, but are able to convert the feedback they get from others into sound > shaping/design concepts? I thing that is what separates a good shaper from > a great one - the ability to work with other’s experiences and > perspectives and let that augment their own. I think that is the X factor, > not how many different places you have surfed and for how many years. It > is how tuned in you are to others as well as yourself. You have to consider where the shapers boards are going to be used. For example, if I surf the waves in Florida I don’t really care if the guy has traveled to surf Hawaii, the waves are totally different. I want the person to understand the conditions I will be up against and be able to transfer that into a great board for “my local break”.
You have to consider where the shapers boards are going to be used. For > example, if I surf the waves in Florida I don’t really care if the guy has > traveled to surf Hawaii, the waves are totally different. I want the > person to understand the conditions I will be up against and be able to > transfer that into a great board for “my local break”. bingo!!! the shaper has to be able to relate to the waves that are going to be ridden on the surfbd he is making-----BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANT---- he has to be able to meet the person he is building the bd for right where they are, not where they were or are going , but wheere they are age, ability, height, weight,etc… my experience tells me the best of all worlds is a shaper who not only surfs well & travels but one that has surfed long enough to know about what has gone down in previous decades and was either on the cutting edge then or at least on the inside track. I tell guys all the time show a great longbd shaper that surfs well and I’ll show a guy that can make a great shortbd, but sad to say the river doesn’t seem to flow the other way — many younger top notch shortbd shapers especially without surfing ability can barely fumble their way through a longbd & even if they do, the bds usally ride like a dog---- one mans viewpoint-- if you really want to have fun how about female shapers & how well should they surf------that should shake things up
There was a woman apprenticing with Johnny Rice a while back-she shape several very nice boards on her own.She also surfs with style and grace and charges when it is bigger.Her name is Miranda Pitts.I think she came in second in the Margaritaville deal and is as nice and as pretty as can be.
i think a good eye and steady hands are worth more than ultimate surf experience. if the best/most experienced surfers made the best shapers the top 44 would never have to worry about retirement…solid artisan/craftsman skill is more important. i’ve had some friends try their hand at shaping and it’s usually obvious in minutes whether they’ve got it or not. just the way they approach the tools, eye the blank, and think things out. i’ve also made boards for people that take them and rip them way harder than i do. i’m sure a tour of the globe would help my shaping, but being a good designer is still the core of shaping imho. great question. bruce
i think a good eye and steady hands are worth more than ultimate surf > experience. if the best/most experienced surfers made the best shapers the > top 44 would never have to worry about retirement…solid > artisan/craftsman skill is more important. i’ve had some friends try their > hand at shaping and it’s usually obvious in minutes whether they’ve got it > or not. just the way they approach the tools, eye the blank, and think > things out. i’ve also made boards for people that take them and rip them > way harder than i do. i’m sure a tour of the globe would help my shaping, > but being a good designer is still the core of shaping imho. great > question.>>> bruce never meant to indicate that a good eye and steady hands aren’t of valuebut you sure can’t beat a guy who can be his own test pilot: mix that with a good eye and steady hands & a wealth of knowledge of where we have been and where we are going and you come up with a Steve Walden, Jim Phillips, John Carper, Gerry Lopez etc---- that separates them from the guys that are just basic great with their hands & tools. Its a mix like a great spagetti sauce it takes all the ingrediants : miss one and well at best its just good not great!
How much actual SURFING experience should a SHAPER have?! (let the games > begin!)… Well to begin with, you have Ralph Parker, a master shaper/craftsman/non surfer. He can replicate anything, but to have him design a board for a specific surf break? I work with Ralph, so this is no put down. Myself, 3X East Coast and 3X U.S champ, has a lot going for telling the difference between one design and another. I personally feel if a shaper is NOT a competent waterman, how is he or she, going to tell you how your board is going to react under a particular situation.
I feel the best surfers usually don’t make the best shapers. I’m sure there are exceptions, but generally a guy that surfs pro level tends to be really good at shaping one kind of board which is usually the kind HE likes to ride. 20 to 30 years of solid surfing and shaping is needed to have it going on. No, a kid that buys a close tolerance blank and shapes a 6-0 that works reasonably well isn’t a “shaper”. A good shaper is someone that has shaped through as many design “revolutions” as possible and can also shape modern equipment. Shape a Todos gun in the morning and a hy per or maybe a good noserider in the afternoon. I’ve seen guys pick it up really fast and some who after many years just don’t have it, so you never know. The most important trait in a shaper is the ability to transform someones needs into a good board for that person. aloha
Well to begin with, you have Ralph Parker, a master shaper/craftsman/non > surfer. He can replicate anything, but to have him design a board for a > specific surf break? I work with Ralph, so this is no put down. Myself, 3X > East Coast and 3X U.S champ, has a lot going for telling the difference > between one design and another. I personally feel if a shaper is NOT a > competent waterman, how is he or she, going to tell you how your board is > going to react under a particular situation. Jim, If Ralph Parker is aware of the specific details regarding the end use of a particular shape he
s replicated, why wouldnt he just associate those same specs with any future work of a similar nature? I suppose this would require an extensive, clear memory/notes of most all the boards he`s shaped, but certainly less brain cells are involved than if he was both a shaper and surfer… sort of like a computer, which leads me to the following: It is possible that someday all relevant, proven surfboard design data could be available in PC software for machine shaping by those who are not shapers or surfers? Tens of thousands of proven design combinations could then simply be identified on a screen menu, clicked and downloaded (of course after the online payment is arranged)… perhaps even by the customers themselves, from most any location in the world (from home?), far from the point of manufacture. Perhaps this approach will even be marketed as “custom”…?
I feel the best surfers usually don’t make the best shapers. I’m sure > there are exceptions, but generally a guy that surfs pro level tends to be > really good at shaping one kind of board which is usually the kind HE > likes to ride. 20 to 30 years of solid surfing and shaping is needed to > have it going on. No, a kid that buys a close tolerance blank and shapes a > 6-0 that works reasonably well isn’t a “shaper”. A good shaper > is someone that has shaped through as many design “revolutions” > as possible and can also shape modern equipment. Shape a Todos gun in the > morning and a hy per or maybe a good noserider in the afternoon. I’ve seen > guys pick it up really fast and some who after many years just don’t have > it, so you never know. The most important trait in a shaper is the ability > to transform someones needs into a good board for that person.>>> aloha EXACTLY; THE SHAPER HAS TO BE WELL VERSED IN ALL TYPES OF EQUIPMENT FROM ALL THE DIFFERENT ERAS BUT IF HE CAN’T SURF THAT WELL —HE WILL ALWAYS BE LIMETED TO SECOND HAND KNOWLEDGE —GIVE ME A SEASONED (20yrs) GREAT SURFER AND MIX IN SAY (20-30yrs)SHAPING EXPERIENCE —WELL NOW YOU GOT A GUY YOU CAN GRT UP AND GO TO SCHOOL WITH!
The original question dealt with surfer/shaper issues. Throw in the designer/test pilot elements and you’ve opened a can with a few more worms in it. Specifically, I’d like to bring up Preisendorfer and Merrick. While they must surf and probably pretty damn good, I don’t remember either of them being well known for contest results. Yet, with feedback from their test pilots, they’ve consistently put out some winning shapes for their teams as well as the masses. Through trial and error, prototype development, test rider feedback, and identifying (or establishing) the latest trend in surfing, they’ve come up with a successful formula that is pretty hard to argue against. The end shapers don’t necessarily have to be able to surf at all - just stick to the plan. The end shapers don’t even have to be human.
Like to master anything great…it might take half of a life time.Herb
How much actual SURFING experience should a SHAPER have?! (let the games > begin!)… I shape therefor I am
Jim,>>> If Ralph Parker is aware of the specific details regarding the end use of > a particular shape he
s replicated, why wouldnt he just associate those > same specs with any future work of a similar nature? I suppose this would > require an extensive, clear memory/notes of most all the boards he`s > shaped, but certainly less brain cells are involved than if he was both a > shaper and surfer… sort of like a computer, which leads me to the > following:>>> It is possible that someday all relevant, proven surfboard design data > could be available in PC software for machine shaping by those who are not > shapers or surfers? Tens of thousands of proven design combinations could > then simply be identified on a screen menu, clicked and downloaded (of > course after the online payment is arranged)… perhaps even by the > customers themselves, from most any location in the world (from home?), > far from the point of manufacture. Perhaps this approach will even be > marketed as “custom”…? Dale you are so close to the money!..Tyler at KKL is getting so good at taking the rocker from one model and adapting it to the out line of another. CUSTOM shaping on the machine is as close to reality as its ever been, but at this stage you still need the master to start with. I imagine you could create a rocker on the computer and meld it to a given outline. Next is to design the wire frame images on a custom curve, but the computer still needs to make the tol passes from an original.
Dale you are so close to the money!..Tyler at KKL is getting so good at > taking the rocker from one model and adapting it to the out line of > another. CUSTOM shaping on the machine is as close to reality as its ever > been, but at this stage you still need the master to start with. I imagine > you could create a rocker on the computer and meld it to a given outline. > Next is to design the wire frame images on a custom curve, but the > computer still needs to make the tol passes from an original. Jim, Yes, it isn`t difficult to imagine the day when thousands of masters and all their functional combinations will exist solely within software programs… A time when a physical original will not be necessary for a starting point, and computers will completely tool the blank, even down to the final finish. Thanks again for sharing so much of all your wisdom with us here in Swaylocks! Dale
GREAT feedback!..Pretty much along the lines of what I expected…Even BETTER, actually! Thanks for the input…! t.