Asymmetrical tucked edge

Hello all,

 

I found something interesting i thought was worth sharing…

 

I have a board that i’m selling for a friend (she moved to D.C.) and i noticed that one tucked edge is quite different compared to the other side.  The board is a …Lost model apparently shaped for a team rider, so I’m wondering if this was intentional.  It makes sense if you think about it.

 

One side blends from a hard edge up past the front fins as you would expect a normal hi-performance shortboard rail to blend.  The other rail blends much quicker.  That is to say that the tuck starts at about the same place but it’s more dramatic and more immediate.  It actually caught me by surprise when i felt it.  Even if it was not intentional, it’s got me thinking about it’s applications when shaping boards that will primarily be surfed at a point break, for example.

 

I’ll take pictures when my wife comes home vacation in the next couple days (she has the camera). 

 

Does anyone have any experience doing asymmetrical tucked edges?

 

-Andy

Bit of a hijack maybe , but instead of starting another thread , this seems a good place to ask ....

I was looking at a Miller V Skate a while back and noticed that he'd tucked the rail edge all the way back to the tail - about  5 mm at the leading edge of the fins, not rounded off though , still a definite edge.

Surprised me a bit as I thought prevailing wisdom was to keep that hard outer edge ' a shaka width 'up  from the fins.

As far as I remember every board I've owned or even looked at has been like that.Except maybe my 80's McCoy thruster , that had round rails at the fins , no edge. Certainly all 4 that I've shaped, ha.

I did a search here , but nothing specifically on tucked edges at the tail .

Miller knows what he's doing  , so what are the benefits ?Spose what I really mean is what would the benefits be for me a late 40s weekender.

Just remembered Brian Bulkley does talk about it a bit here 

I'll take the liberty of quoting him

''I'm a bit of a lone ranger on this idea. But many like Lost and the other big boys do tuck the edge a bit, where as the other I don't know world wide, but maybe 50% have the non tuck knife sharp straight down square in the tail. Not like I haven't done it, but I've looked at a board thinking nice shape, from another shaper, and gone out to ride it, and it didn't suit me to say the least. Still worked, but the whole time riding it, I was thinking how much better it would have worked with a slight tuck. This is one level. For the narrow boards of the Slater dynasty it made more sense to me to keep the chippy boards on top of the water. Rails were thinner and maybe boxy, and the freedom to punt airs was made. They definetly release for aerobatics. Big plus. Skipping flipping, rolling upside down clowning around, a benefit for sure. Doesn't mean a tucked under 1/8 to 3/16 won't do most all of this as well, just maybe a slight more controlled release. These are only opinions, of coarse, and there are many feelings in both directions. Now I don't normally take the edge off as much as tuck it more than most shapes I've seen. Now I'm not always around when the board is finished and they end up with more edge. Like I said, still go good. Just a little less skip on a big bottom turn and especially on less perfect conditions. I was on a trip with a group of friends with new boards and was checking out the new stuff. Most all had a nice edge tucked farely normal for my taste, and with some texture, saw this shredder kid slightly skipping of the bottom. pissed me right off. Got back to camp and made him give me his board. I proceded to assure him I wasn't out of my mind when I grabbed sand paper and ripped into his fine tuned edges. Next day he was ready to test it and let me know if I owed him a surfboard. Night and day, loved it. Smooth transitions into the lip, blasting everything in his path stoked. I've done this for years but don't go sanding your edges off and blaming me for ruinin your board. Lately thinking with the deeper concaves, I'd like to give it a push to the next level. Ruin it or well, make a deep butter concave. Forgiving but with acceleration of a deep concave. Push it to far and somethings got to give. If I lose performance, I'll back it right up. Lot more can be said for different combos in design. This is a touchy zone. Won't do it to a customer yet. I'm going to try to have demos of what works soon, but with my moving back from CR, could hold it up some. Maybe late July or soon there after. Thanks for the inquiry. photos in a few days of my new one. Just need to get in the water. Whats with the wind. Kinda hard to tell whats up in these conditions we've had a lot lately''

"Does anyone have any experience doing asymmetrical tucked edges?"

Yes, but not on purpose.

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"Does anyone have any experience doing asymmetrical tucked edges?"

Yes, but not on purpose.

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ha ha, me too...

was there a ding that was fixed on one of the rails? maybe the person doing the repair didn't set the edge back to where it was?

     Howzit John,I am thinking that the original rider liked a harder rail on either his back side turns or front side turns but only he would know unless it was the result of a repair that went a little bad.It's  new one in my book.Aloha,Kokua

A name shaper I know is quoted as saying - " I like the forehand rail...and I really like the backhand rail too!"

 

There's no real reason why perfect symmetry in surfboards makes sense. With edge and tuck-under being critical to hold/release in a board, I say there is a possibility that the lost board you mentioned was tuned intentionally...It'd be a very subtle assymetry. Or perhaps as Kokua suggests, just a Bose-up! 

 

Josh

www.joshdowlingshape.com

 

I get what you’re saying… that the outside rail just needs to release, and the hard edge does exactly that. But I’m thinking about going rail-to-rail, like on a top turn or roundhouse… Your foot, from the ankle to the toe, acts as a lever. More leverage on the front side can apply more force to the hard-edged inside (frontside) rail, and overcome the planing forces with ease. On the heel side, you don’t have the leverage, so you want to be able to transition easily from toe to heel rail, and a softer rail profile can help facilitate that. At least that’s my theory…

Hull Bay.  Brings back a few memories.  Can’t be sure that I ever saw your customer there, but I like the design you mentioned.

Mike, I think you were still at my factory, I built 4 boards for a guy at Hull Bay St. Thomas, all asymmetrical’s, he surfed a predominate left, the front side rail was thinner, longer hard edge,  less V, but running further up the board and a narrower tail. Backside was a fuller rail, shorter V, but more of it close to the end of the tail and the fin boxes were set up different too, further back for front side with less toe and up more back side with more toe.

He told me the boards worked great for that specific break, longer time at the bottom with a quick snap off the top, like i’ve always said  " you don’t surf the same way front side as back side "

There was a thread last year that covered some of the reasons.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/help-setting-fins-unusual-tail

greg's explanation seemed good:

The idea of an asymetrical is that your feet are not symetrical.  Their attached at the heel so the heel side has more power and less feel while the toes have more feel and less power.  Asymatry takes advantage of this by giving the toe side more power and the heel side more feel.  I usually built boards that would have advatages in waves that went one direction.  First peak at Sebastian was a such place and Jacky Grayson had a couple of these for there.  I built a four fin once that you could change the fins on so that anyone could ride it whether they were right foot or goofy.  The shape was symetrical but the fins could be switched giving the asymetry.

I forgot to metion the rails.  Just a taste softer on the backside rail.  The toes can handle more edge.

 

Yeah Jim, I remember those boards. Probably the first time I got to see a professional do a thoughtfully designed asymmetrical. I think the V difference stuck with me, because I did it on a few. Around 95 I saw it on some other top-level pro's boards, and knew enough to know that it wasn't an accident.

The edge or V asymmetry is a way to influence how the board turns heel or toe side without resorting to full-on outline variations. I'd recommend anyone interested in exploring asymmetry try this first. The edge thing is easy to do on an existing board, using resin beads or even bondo.

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 I've done slightly asymmetrical V off the tail as well.

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Why is it when I do that, everyone calls it twist??? :D

Did someone say asymmetrical???[img_assist|nid=1052889|title=Asymmetry is underrated!|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]

yeah…right?

I’m trying to figure out what/where would be most applicable.

 

Could be an accident, or consequence of repair; but it could also be intended. There's some little tuning tricks like that employed on team or very personal customs. I've done slightly asymmetrical V off the tail as well.

Less edge would make it easier to roll board on rail to that side.

Yea… makes sense to shorten the hard edge on the heel side… especially if you surf a place that’s mostly frontside waves.

 

Why would you want anything other than a hard (tucked) edge on the heel side for front side surfing?

To me, it seems the advantage of the edge comes from the release it provides on the rail that isn’t engaged.

While I can understand the advantage of the control provided by a soft rail on the inside engaged rail, I can not contemplate a situation where a soft edge is advantageous on the non-engaged rail.

 

 

bump

Is the rail with the extended hard edge on the toe side for a regular foot?

More tuck sits the board in the water, slow it down…and give control, make it forgiven, right?

Less tuck put the board more on top of the water , gives speed but lack in control, right?

So why most boards for bigger powerfull waves( HPSB step-up) have the tuck transition(from sharp to soft) further up (closer the mid of the board)…if a powerfull wave is asking more for control then release?

I can unsderstand what the rail volume does … the more volume less rail in the water thing…

But the tuck under still tricks my mind !

Any thoughts apreciated !

Daniel