??? Aviso Comments

General Discussion
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Aviso Surfboards specialize in composite engineering techniques to manufacture hollow, carbon fiber surfboards. The materials and methods used are predominately known to the aerospace and defense industry, where design and manufacture of structures must be lightweight, strong, and have ideal flex characteristics to withstand intense physical forces. Aviso pursued constructing a surfboard based foremost on increasing performance and handling characteristics while bolstering strength and durability factors by orders of magnitude.

A High Temperature Fiber Placement Process allows the boards to be some of the lightest and strongest boards ever designed and produced. Nothing ties the top and bottom components of the boards together except for the rails. This enables the deck and bottom to work and flex independently. This unique feature acts as a suspension system to launch the surfer from one turn into the next with remarkable control and momentum.

Since the deck is not directly connected to the bottom, the board absorbs and stores potential energy and propels the surfer swiftly and efficiently, allowing an almost constant state of acceleration to be realized. Carbon fiber has remarkable reflex memory with an ideal “coefficient of restoration”, a property inherent in any rigid structure that allows it to return to its original state after a physical force is applied - “How much does a material flex & how fast does it flex back?” Analogies in sports include the technological transition from wood to carbon graphite tennis rackets and aluminum bike forks to carbon fiber.

Okay so what does that mean?

Maybe Kendall being a HydroEpic expert or the Segway folks can illuminate.

“Deck not attached to the bottom except for the rails”

Is hollow a better way to achieve flex response?

so does this mean maybe not securing the skins to the core and allowing for Delams on the first place with a “breather” plug is the way to go? That would mean using blue as a core and double coating or completely infusing all your wood to prevent water logging.

Anyone ever try to layer a thin layer of honeycomb(like ACP’s aeromat or Flexible nomex) between two very thin sheets (1/32") of balsa. Or even try a thin 1/8 skin of end grain glassed on both sides as a skin? I even think a 1/16" thick sheet of corecel or balsa sandwiched between two sheets of my woven bamboo using 1.5oz with RR2020 might make one hell of a skin strog enough not to have to be attached to the core…

thinking out of the box again anyone attempt this?

blue dow core

1/8" EPP Polypropelene secondary top and bottom skin silicone caulked to core

solid wood rails

wood sandwich skin

-for the deck maybe even a cross grain layering of ultrathin maple like a skateboard deck

-for the bottom a diagonal layering of balsa for flex.

kind of light a surflight with wood rails and a wood skin

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"Deck not attached to the bottom except for the rails"

Is hollow a better way to achieve flex response?

so does this mean maybe not securing the skins to the core and allowing for Delams on the first place with a “breather” plug is the way to go? That would mean using blue as a core and double coating or completely infusing all your wood to prevent water logging.

Bert spoke of this numerous times, not fully fusing the sandwich to the core to promote flex.

The pics of the Firewire that snapped at OBSF bore this out, they clearly showed the skin was epoxied to the core on the outer 1/3rd, and not fused in the middle of the board, so that large chunks of skin could flake off without damaging the EPS at all.

Bert’s take was that shear between layers promotes a flex response, and fully fusing the skin to the core suppresses shear, therefore fully fusing the skin to the core suppresses the flex response.

fwiw

The hydroepic test riders I talked to said it felt like the board squished in a turn, like a balloon that flattened out a little.

the goal, AFAICT, is to constrain the flex to be entirely on one axis, the rocker straightening and bending, without impacting the concave/vee dimension, or the thickness.

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Hi Oneula,

Since I make pre made skins with my compsand, I can choose how much of the skins get glued to the EPS core with GG. I really don’t know how much this affects or doesn’t affect flex since I’m noob at compsand construction. But I’ve done it, you can use GG just on the rail area when gluing the skin to the core and it will work. Maybe a little in the middle if you have a concave deck. I’m curious to see what others have to say…

Cheers,

Rio

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Howzit oneula,Did you get the PM I sent you. Aloha,Kokua

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yup sorry for not getting back.

no worries

glad I could help out and it helps me clean up around here anyway

I have enough proboxes for another dozen boards and enough FCS fins to last me a life time…

plus Griffin’s providing me with custom hand made G-10 fins on every board I get from him and you can never go wrong with that.

Just make someone happy with your handi-work

Maybe one day when I’m out your way I’ll drop by to say hello to you and Ambrose…

aloha

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test, test, then test.

this is a SUPER easy test.

take a piece of eps foam. spackle it sealed so there won’t be much drainage into the core.

laminate it, on either side, with your skin of choice. attach one end to something solid and apply a weight; measure deflection.

repeat procedure, but adhere only the periphery of the skins to the eps. attach to something solid. Apply same weight. measure deflection. (I already know the answer to this)

NOW…here’s the kicker…repeat procedure but use a MUCH lower density foam…or a softer foam…or remove large amounts of the foam…and try and get as much surface area bonded from the skins on to what foam is left (but don’t go crazy or anything by letting too much resin into the foam). Apply the same physical test.

which one flexes most boys?

aviso’s are NOT flexible boards…not longitudinally…they DO have a good degree of panel flex as there is no core.

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Quote:

Since the deck is not directly connected to the bottom, the board absorbs and stores potential energy and propels the surfer swiftly and efficiently, allowing an almost constant state of acceleration to be realized.

Both bert and greg loehr has mentioned the trampoline effect in the past and how that would work as described. regards, Håvard

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If there was something more flexible than GG like some of those 3M marine/block adhesives might be interesting

That’s why I thought a thin layer of squishy polyprolene packing foam between the core and the skin might provide a little more freedom to the skin without deforming the EPS/XPS core too much. Since your’e not worried about skin delams you could go with XPS which is more water resistant and a valve or 2 for pressure equalization/water clearage like the hollow boards do. The Aviso/Hydro epic valves are neat… Kind of like roy’s sink-er-ator valve.

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I think thats the right kinda approach Oneula.

The actual amount of shear movement between the skin and main core is not that much.

I feel boards don’t actually flex as much when ridden as when we jump up and down on them. Or at least not that often.

So something that will allow shear, then return to normal when unloaded.

Then you could still bond the skin to the core still and avoid any delam problems.

So all the shear is actually realised by the core, localised deformation at the surface where the skin bonds to it.

Imagine if you went to the extreme of putting a light weight foam, like the stuff on one of your sanding pads, in between two sandwich skins.

You could flex that a huge amount.

The foam would just be bullied in to conforming to what ever tension or compression force is applied to it.

EPS is already pretty great, the 1 pound stuff has great deformability and spring back.

There are more than likely better materials.

I think flexible adhesives could make a huge difference, every little bit of free movement helps.

That photo of the snapped firewire at OB - I thought that just showed where the springer is, not that it isn’t bonded to the core fully?

Kit

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test, test, then test

That’s the scientist in you speaking though right?

I understand…

The reason I bring it up is I haven’t quite seen this reaction yet in my compsands. But in my early observations a couple of years ago and layman’s analysis of the video of the girls on the Hydoepic site, it seemed as if the boards were accelerating with the slight weighting and unweighting those girls were doing in their trim.

There’s a move us old timers do on our longboards when trimming up front called the “Hula Shuffle” which is kind of like doing the hula with just a minute weighting and unweighting from your hips that’s breaks the board just slightly free side to side in a straight trim causing it to accelerate. You don’t see very many folks doing anymore except us old timers but it’s completely opposite of the modern hop manuever with the same effect. The old beach boys used to do it with their finless boards and we learned it on those old heavy tankers from the 60’s we grew up on. Comes in handy in a white water trim. The old farts did it all the time.

But watching those gals on those hollow boards and now hearing this explaination made me wonder if indeed a board that aborbs the nuances of surface disruption versus bouncing away from it like a light stiff surftech normally would is actually faster. This is different than the typical load unload concept most are thinking about when thinking about deeply engaged turns.

If it’s still there go check out Hydroepic’s site and tell me if I’m imagining things.

Bert’s always been in favor of 1lb cores

but like someone said here why does it have to be foam in the first place?

Is that because we associate the core with PU that we have to put something similar in the middle of our balsa M&Ms?

P.S.

Yup I just thought about it Roy…

so before you hop in about your 5 layer dragon design…

u-da-man

everything alright now?

and yes

I see you going very faster in that little avatar…

but atoms speed up and get hot (red suit?) as they are compressed

But you have a point what ever it’ll be…

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I did this nice long response, but the computer locked up and ate the response, and on top of that I ran out of time. I will try to respond again later…

Regards,

Ken

Segway Composites

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"Bert’s always been in favor of 1lb cores "

try less…he (and others) often referred to values of less than 1#.

Bernie; you’ve got the DIAB sandwich handbook, right? http://www.fgi.com.au/literature/manuals/sandwich_hb.pdf Look at page three, where they’re comparing the two core materials; one that is strong in shear and one that is weak in shear.

Obviously, a core that does not resist shear allows the panels to move more freely. Furthermore, as they’re essentially locked at the ends, the panels need to move closer to one another as the board flexes as well.

it’s all about putting the lightest core possible in there; all it is is a form; a super soft male mold that is used to mold a female part (the skin) around. The stiffer your skin material is, the higher density core required to support the vacuum loads required to make the skin adopt the curvature. That combo will put you in the ultrastiff/ultralight category.

It’s about using skins that are soft enough to conform, but resist shear movement and can resist impacts (no doubt why core-cell was the sandwich foam or choice. Airex would be second) with cores that are soft enough to move under shear loads. The only other thing that the core does is disperse loads, and those loads should already be pretty disperse by the time they make it all the way through that sandwich of glass/HD foam and glass.

You’re right; there’s no need for a core, but a mold is a necessity. Whether is exists as a male mold in the form of a “foam blank”, or as stations in a HWS or as a female mold for hydroepic or aviso construction, you need a mold.

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Well…the answer is obvious. :slight_smile: Instead of adhesive, Gorilla TAPE. All around the perimiter of the blank, to adhere pre-made skins. No foaming action to open your joints. A couple dozen spring clamps will do the trick. Or Blue tape, even. Then glass the outside, as usual. All kinda flex within that core. No vac bag needed at all. Seriously - make the skins of flat balsa with hand-laminated glass (for the inside); glue on the rail pieces with any kinda glue you want & tape or blank offcuts; stick on the skins with Gorilla Tape & pressure; glass the outside. If you don’t try it, I just might :slight_smile:

http://www.gorillatape.com/home.htm

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actually I’ve been looking at molding some type of skin one at a time over my surftech merrick flyer and then fastening them together to build a singing hollow but Ken/Kendall scared me off with their description of what’s needed to fasten two shells without bursting at the seams later. I’ve been thinking of a 1"-3" thick foam or wood rail band to fasten the shells togethor I got that idea from the model airplane build as well as the insides of a solomon.

dave and I also had been toying around with the use of a layer of polypropelene (EPP) like Surflight under the skin using a flexible marine silicone adhesive between the two. Especially on the bottom where you want as much release from the load as possible to prevent failure (snapping). Kind of like a surflight with a hard but flexing deck shell or the opposite design of those softie surftechs.

I think what Dave’s finding out

is you want the bottom to absorb vibration, pressure and shear load but you want the deck to be able to apply and respond back from surfer applied shear loads very quickly. It’s really Tom Morey’s classic “soft and flexible” design he described back on Surfer in the early 70’s along with his “air injected” designs. Eliminate the bottom friction but support a torsional distortion that can be converted into thrust with flex memory.

Kind of imaginary stuff until someone here’s does it…

I don’t why I’m getting distracted again as I don’t have the time…

But I hear that “hey lets play” Lowes Foam call in the back of my head again…

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if you want hollow…

This has probably been mentioned many times before -

Shape out of EPS, vav skins on, then dissolve EPS away with a solvent (styrene, acetone, thinners etc.).

You can put braceing stringers, springers or whatever, just by doing a glue up to your blank.

Or have it completely hollow if you can engineer the skins to handle having no suppport.

Kit

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Once again applying new technology to old Pu/Pe spec plugs. Or maybe the ole “Hollow W.A.V.E” technology, remember those? Brewer did a dbl wng swallow plug I believe. I had a 6-8 diamond mini gun. Looks like they got a few molds, and still don’t have the “magic board” …needs to be found…or discovered, or scheduled, or customized for your preference. How many variables does the average surfer want to deal with? Simple PU/PE dimensions are a challenge for most; now how bout dabblin’ in a little rocket science…brought to you by bomb builders.

…But wait, nothing changes, all the while the shapers original rocker line stays the same, the way 'the shaper intended". The deck stores all the energy…it deflects and stores the riders energy…ah like a battery. “Then it propels you forward”…ah like a rocket. With a flip of the deck switch, whenever you need it…like on the paddle back out. …But wait, with every stroke you deflect the deck and are further propelled thru the line up…you duck dive deflecting the deck and wosh double wave dip…bam your back at the head of the line up…your friends …your buds… are all gettin beat back…but you … you’re scratching under and into the thickest clam shell of the day…with confidence …with that constant rocker…wait you’re…you’re floating… free falling into another dimension as you reengage within the liquid medium’s cylindrical form of a pint glass…recounting the sci fi epic, “That board sucks!”

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I hear you.

That’s why I now give my money to Chandler instead of Lowes or Fiberglass Hawaii now.

so the real question to answer is, are all these big and semi-big names who associate their brand with this silly new technology just a bunch of sellouts only interested in when and where the next George Washington will surface to go into their pocket while the true genius’s are slaving away in the trenches. or what?

I mean the list is huge…

and each one is either tjeir personal stamp of approval or a way of “getting mine too” syndrome.

Van Straalen, Garrett and others make some different stuff but I don’t see them coming out with a model endorsing a particular product or solution…

It’s an interesting question…

And a sad one too

cuase there’s so much more going on out there that we never hear about…

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Here I am, chiming in.

The reason I signed on to Hydro Epic five years ago was because I wanted to exploit technology to make a better surfboard. Dick Brewer signed on as a “name” shaper for the same reason. So did Al Merrick and Steve Walden. None of us think this is the only way to make surfboards, but it’s a way we wanted to explore. Margins on Hydro Epics are tiny. They’re made in California, using some of the most expensive materials you can buy, in ultra expensive molds, laid up by hand, bagged and heat cured, trimed and prepped, glued, heat cured again, cleaned up, prepped and taped, painted, polished, and a bunch of stuff I’m not even including. Way more labor goes into making a Hydro Epic than any other board I can think of. The way to make a small fortune making boards like this, is to start with a large fortune.

Dick was exploring hollow board tech long ago. At Hydro Epic, I was trying to find a magic combination of characteristics that made the boards surf best. We made and tested hundreds of boards. We gave them to pros to get feedback. I put myself in the impact zone and threw myself over the falls in triple-O surf to see how they’d hold up. I have surfed more Hydro Epics than any other person.

The first board I tried had noticable flex that seemed to make it more lively. The board would load up in turns, then snap back quickly and launch you forward - like a snowboard or springy skateboard. I realized we could control the flex throughout the board, and started making and surfing many many test boards. Early boards had glass stringers attaching the deck and bottom. When the board flexed, the deck would compress and the bottom would stretch and try to sheer the stringer free - which happened a bunch. I then thought if we lost the stringer we’d lose the sheer problem.

We started making lots of decks and bottoms with different flex characteristics. We glued them up in various combinations and went about surfing them. We also made boards with EPS stringers and some with full foam cores. We didn’t know what combos we were trying so the tests would stay “blind”.

The boards were all identical dimensions and similar weight. The differences in the ways they surfed were huge. The stiffer boards were lifeless and slow to react. The most flexible boards would flex into turns and have a hard time changing direction. Foam inside the boards made them feel more like a traditional board… which wasn’t what we were going for. There was a magic balance when the board would flex and snap back quickly.

Along the way we also discovered that we could make the bottom dynamic and keep the deck more rigid. What I mean by that is - the deck would feel solid under your feet, and the bottom would change shape according to input from both surfer and wave.

None of this came cheap or easy. We spent a couple million bucks just to get the boards to a point where they surfed like we wanted and didn’t leak or break.

I left Hydro Epic a couple years ago to do other stuff. Al Merrick is releasing his models now - after four years of testing. Walden has been happily selling them for a while. They’re doing Hynson quads. Brewer will be adding a few more shapes - so you won’t have to weigh 145 and surf Pipeline to appreciate them.

I was a little suprised to see Alviso get such a foothold with their boards. I think that my leaving HE opened the door for them to snag name shapers. There’s the preception that the technology is the same. Even though they look similar from the outside, they are really different animals on the inside.

I just like boards that work… for me. These days that’s all kinds of stuff.

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A name is just a name, you can sign on to technology you know nothing about, or you can pioneer it yourself. R. French had tough time getting the endorsement of may names he builds out now. Many feared either the failure of the “endorsed” technology or the take over of “their” industry and the nightmare of being excluded and left behind groveling in the remnants of a fading cottage industry. I was in that trench during the transition from Seatrend to Surftech, I witnessed a lot of disposable technology, and the angst of hemoraging capital. Marrying into molds is costly, especially with the eventual design divorce; thats the beauty of doing classic retros.

  But the cutting edge stuff I begrudge nobody, its serious and expensive work....prison at times. If you want to coatail it with your dimensional designs...you're in effect promoting it; its a contribution. Whether you hit pay dirt is another story;  whether you produce the holy grail still another. There's a lot of unsung stories out there, but then a lot of stoked surfers. I could do without the herd, riding corporate, cookie cutter crap, devoid of any unique style, soul or clarity. 

  "Back in the day if you didn't like someone's style, you wouldn't even build 'em a board," --R. French