Yeah, I see what you are saying. An improperly packed container in hot conditions will get you a whole bunch of flat rockers. I have seen whole containers of clark arrive with 15% reject rate with flattened rockers, just to be put back on the shelf for an unsuspecting barkyarder to buy. So for all years the non CA had to carefully check out the product. Now you all will be getting the imported stuff in. Better know your measurements and double check before you buy. Welcome to the world we have been living in forever.
not just that… but the foams quality and stringer wood. Clarks milling was pretty good and it will take a big effort to match, EPS of pu. I guess we’ll see.
thanks foammaster.
Quote:
SNIP
From all sources he didn’t get there by being the nice guy.
As for his business practices they are common knowledge as the above quote confirms.
Aloha Mark
I am not taking sides here…so please don’t suck me into that discussion. These issues have nothing to do with my point below.
After 40+ years in surfing, I can confidently tell you that rumors, quotes, and “facts” generated by those in the surf industry, are rarely safe to repeat or trust in.
Speaking from personal experience, it has been falsely said of me and repeated thousands of times for decades, that I have been…
Divorced
Run out of town
The guy who turned all the backyarders in
Bankrupt
A drug dealer
Quit Shaping
Lost it
Out of touch
Sickly and out of condition
Secret owner of Billabong (hence the name)
Not even close to being a Christian
Dead
And too many more to remember.
Fact is none of these were ever true but if one measured truth by “everyone was saying it”, I wouldn’t even be here to tell you about it cause I would be dead!
There is hardly a surfboard builder around here that hasn’t at one point or another found a way to blame his lack of success on me or my businesses. When in fact I have directly helped so many, teaching them, extending them credit, providing them tools or facilities, helping them get jobs, or giving them jobs. Yet this is rarely the prevailing view from the rumor mill. Have I been imperfect at times…of course!
“Strong people always have strong weaknesses too.”
– Peter Drucker
There are a rare few, basically just surfer dudes, who wound up traveling along a terrifyingly original course, through uncharted waters, devoid of guarantees, to achieve an unknown reward.
Don’t be too hard on them. For every evil thing you think you know about them there are likely 100 blessed events that you never heard of. Could they have done better… maybe. But in that cautious mode, what necessary challenges wouldn’t have been grasped for and overcome, that bless us all today?
Your a good guy Mark and your design contributions are significant and needed here. I can guarantee you that the politics of surfing will never be worth consuming any of that on.
Quote:
Quote:“Strong people always have strong weaknesses too.”
– Peter Drucker
Great post Bill and so very true. It’s funny you use that quote. This is no reflection on any part of your really good post.
There is this well known surfer from here who used that very same quote. He makes the big claim of pious Chrisitian, but honestly this old boy has done more damage to surfing in our area than almost anyone else. Dishonest, mean spirited, thief, etc a serioulsy warped individual. Few call him on it, because he now has lots of money. “By their fruits you will know them.” usually does them in, but not always.
It’s just funny thats one of his favorite quotes. It allows him to hang himself on the cross whenever accusation points his way.
I have not heard many of those rumors about you Bill. Especially the Billibong one. Thats a hoot. No fun when the rumors are flying though. Been through that myself.
great… mixing religion with economic/management styles. What is a Christian suppose to be like then??? Just because you have a surfboard on top of your car doesn’t make you a surfer. Even if you can talk to talk or subscribe to swaylocks.
Maybe your christian business nemisis isn’t a christian?? Or maybe you look hard for an exuse anywhere else but the mirror.
Didn’t drucker also talk about need for “planned abandonment.” Corporations as well as governments have a natural human tendency to cling to “yesterday’s successes” rather than seeing when they are no longer useful.
works well with business but not religion.
I would apply this to pu/pe construction. Many are hanging on to yesterdays successes and don’t know when to quit. "more pu blanks are coming…sitting on the dock of the bay…waiting for China to save the day. Drucker would be very proud how this all is working out!!! Just as predicted per drucker.
And of most interest noticing the splinter in the eye of those using the specs in a Clark catolog and quoting drucker with a straight face.
gotta go and mow some lawns between hotcoats.
Mark,
I did want to reply to your rant about Clark shuting down Greg Loehr, what do you mean by this? Do you mean that Clark Foam didn’t want to sell their product to someone who had an agenda that was negative to their business? Greg’s agenda has always appeared to be to promote Stryo/Epoxy boards and bash PE/PU, as Clark’s had always appeared to be the opposite. Why would they do business together? Would it not be better for each to go head to head, letting the better product win? A Stryo/Epoxy manufacture can always make their own blanks anywhere they are in this world at a pretty low cost, so you can’t mean Greg couldn’t make boards economically.
I respect Greg a lot, I like his rebel attitude. I also think opposing views help improvements in quality and design. I do think the Styro/Epoxy guys have always misunderstood why others haven’t jumped on their bandwagon focusing to much on a superior raw materials. Now that Clark Foam is shut down, it will make everybody reflect on the positives and negatives of all the technology out there and how to cross the barriers to achieve a better riding board.
Sluggo
Foammaster,
I didn’t bring Christianity into it. Seems like I read some long list of accusations with a big quote attached. You want me to answer what a the Biblical Christian is supposed to be, I will be happy to do that off the thread. The person I mentioned has remained nameless on purpose, but I can assure you he is one of the least trusted people in the industry with good reason, yet post the Jesus stuff everywhere. There is a rash of that crap in this business. My comment was directed at the quote itself, which is one giant excuse for bad behavior. The quote, not the person posting it. I don’t know Bill, so I can’t make any judgement at all on if any of the accusations he mentioned are true. I am well aware of the log in my own eye and I can take it as well as dish it, which most people can’t.
What…did the post hit a hot spot for you or something.
Quote:
Quote:Not even close to being a Christian
“Strong people always have strong weaknesses too.”
– Peter Drucker
The above comment was my reference. All people have strong weaknesses. It's called being human. This is like saying, I do really bad things, but you have to understand, it's just part of me being a strong person. Strong people's weakness may be more noticeable because they are strong people. Why should it matter?
Quote:
Quote:Quote:There is this well known surfer from here who used that very same quote. He makes the big claim of pious Chrisitian, but honestly this old boy has done more damage to surfing in our area than almost anyone else. Dishonest, mean spirited, thief, etc a serioulsy warped individual. Few call him on it, because he now has lots of money. “By their fruits you will know them.” usually does them in, but not always.
Wow, for not bringing up christianity your discription of your business nemesis and unreferenced bible quote in the new living solosurf translation pretty much brought me to that conclusion. A sore spot??? The whole thread premise is a sore spot. First swaylockers to be above the frey??? every other good idea gets discussed, ripped apart and copied right on this forum with a picture to boot of the final product. Advice on how to steal, cheat and beat the system have all been given with few if any objections to how wrong those things are. “Can’t wait for my surfburger to x-ray it”!!! So the assumption that sways is above the rest of humanity is absurd. Mostly, I think the initial poster should look long and hard at their surfboard manufacturing career and exam if intellectual property of others was ever incorporated in the design of their products? I could be wrong. Maybe just some of us are the leaders in the industry and have no peers! As for the drucker quote…extremely lame.
Quote:
Quote:Quote:Quote:There is this well known surfer from here who used that very same quote. He makes the big claim of pious Chrisitian, but honestly this old boy has done more damage to surfing in our area than almost anyone else. Dishonest, mean spirited, thief, etc a serioulsy warped individual. Few call him on it, because he now has lots of money. “By their fruits you will know them.” usually does them in, but not always.
Wow, for not bringing up christianity your discription of your business nemesis and unreferenced bible quote in the new living solosurf translation pretty much brought me to that conclusion. A sore spot??? The whole thread premise is a sore spot. First swaylockers to be above the frey??? every other good idea gets discussed, ripped apart and copied right on this forum with a picture to boot of the final product. Advice on how to steal, cheat and beat the system have all been given with few if any objections to how wrong those things are. “Can’t wait for my surfburger to x-ray it”!!! So the assumption that sways is above the rest of humanity is absurd. Mostly, I think the initial poster should look long and hard at their surfboard manufacturing career and exam if intellectual property of others was ever incorporated in the design of their products? I could be wrong. Maybe just some of us are the leaders in the industry and have no peers! As for the drucker quote…extremely lame.
And why do you look at the speck in your brothers eye, but do not consider the plank in your own. Mathew 7: 3. KJV. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them. Math. 7.20 I don’t use a paraphrase friend, so no living translation for me. This reference enough for ya. Also: He is not only my nemesis. My discription was actually kind considering some of the folks that have been hurt and slandered. Don’t worry, I have said my piece directly to the person in question. I only used him to make a point about the silly quote. If you read my other post you would see that I don’t believe anyone is legally cheating or stealing anything when it comes to surfboard blank designs. If you want to protect yourself in this country of laws, you take the time to buy a trademark or patent and spend money on lawyers to protect it. Otherwise, don’t cry. Life is not fair. Also legal boy, it’s not intellectual property if it’s not protected by copyright or trademark. Many of us here may not like to see our friends that shape surfboards getting ripped off and voice it here, but honestly I have not seen you post here often enough to see whether we should find Billy Goat’s gruff for you or take your post seriously. You certain have a right to your opinion, this is about an exchange of ideas, but honestly, your last post made very little sense. Surfburger X ray?..
Quote:
SNIPAll people have strong weaknesses. It’s called being human. This is like saying, I do really bad things, but you have to understand, it’s just part of me being a strong person. Strong people’s weakness may be more noticeable because they are strong people. Why should it matter?
Aloha solosurfer
I don’t think Drucker nor I were trying to “excuse” any kind of bad behavior anymore than we were trying to praise strong peoples strength.
Druckers quote that “Strong people always have strong weaknesses too”, is simply an OBSERVATION that people intense enough to regularly take big risks are often subject to higher failure rates regarding personal weakness. I am sure there is room to argue the precise ratio of STRONG vs WEAKNESS. But it seems to me that those strong enough to tackle bigger things have a weakness index proportionate to the intensity of strength.
It would of course, be nice if this observation wasn’t true, and I am sure there are exceptions, but it seems pretty accurate to me, that is why I used it.
The guy you mentioned that uses the quote as an excuse for bad behaviour is using it all wrong. Unless the guy has some amazing achievements under his belt, there is little chance that the quote or it’s observation, has anything to do with him and his bad behavior. And Drucker would probably straighten him out on the subject if he had the chance. As would I.
Aloha foamaster
Sorry this thread has irritated you so much. It certainly wasn’t my intention.
Nor did I intend to get our relationship, as small as it is, off on such a bad footing.
Sorry.
Quote:
SNIPA sore spot??? The whole thread premise is a sore spot. First swaylockers to be above the frey???
Actually, I was just trying to be a bit up beat by commenting on the positives that are evident on Swaylock’s. By doing so I wasn’t suggesting that negatives didn’t also exist.
every other good idea gets discussed, ripped apart and copied right on this forum with a picture to boot of the final product.
I think the difference you are missing here is that these things aren’t boldly promoted and being sold as exact copies under the same moniker as the original. And if they were it wouldn’t be proper.
Advice on how to steal, cheat and beat the system have all been given with few if any objections to how wrong those things are.
I also find those discussions to be uncomfortable. I don’t know how much the moderators should control those. But that is a delicate balance in these online communities. The whole premise is the freedom. Some will use it responsibly some less so. There is of course, some risk in challenging others opinions etc, but we can all be civil and share differing opinions. Can’t we?
“Can’t wait for my surfburger to x-ray it”!!! So the assumption that sways is above the rest of humanity is absurd.
I wasn’t meaning to compare or lift Swaylockians above the rest of humanity. What I said was that…“Swaylockians seem to shoot for a pretty high standard…etc.” I wasn’t suggesting that Swaylockians hit what they shoot at or were any better than anyone else in humanity. I was just trying to be friendly and positive before touching on a potentially sensitive subject. I wasn’t trying to write anything in stone and mount it on the alter in the Swaylock’s temple as absolute truth.
Mostly, I think the initial poster should look long and hard at their surfboard manufacturing career and exam if intellectual property of others was ever incorporated in the design of their products?
As the “original poster”, foammaster, I have a real name and one that I am not afraid to divulge online or elsewhere and you are quite welcome to use.
I have been involved in the surf industry for decades. I have learned a little from a lot of different people but I have always, to the best of my ability and circumstance, given credit when the opportunity arose. Since I never had a specific teacher that taught me to shape, glass, sand or airbrush, etc. It is hard to credit anyone specifically for any particular influence. I was always blessed with the ability to figure things out ever since I was that kid who exasperated his parents by taking apart all of his toys. Consequentially, I learned most of what I know by the seat of my pants and experimenting. When my full website is up and online, I hope to note some of the influences in my life and career. There is simply not space here.
To answer your challenge, I know of no time where the “intellectual property of others” as you say, was ever used in my designs without permission or encouragement of those originating it. This is a somewhat guarded statement because most everyone knows that I am a bit of a fanatic about measuring boards. Not unlike a CAD/CAM system that has scanning ability.
Maybe I should make it clear that I haven’t made production boards in 15+ years, nor do I produce models or repetitive copies of even my own designs. I make one off, custom boards according to each customers needs and desires.
To be clear, my boards are designed to please my customers and to do that I often dissect their boards to understand their basis of experience. I then shape what is necessary to improve and enhance that experience. Rarely does it resemble their existing equipment. Though to the untrained eye it might. I haven’t seen anything even remotely original in a board in the past 20 years and my existing data pool is huge so there is little chance that I would be copying anything new from someone else. I would rather, be drawing on my own experiences and knowledge of assembling common design features to create the right board.
On the other hand, boards are sadly similar these days, so arguments on this level are pretty much irrelevant anyway. There are of course, always the influence of trends and maybe there is someone who actually should get some credit for them. And I would be happy to do so. Customers will typically want what looks trendy, but that is far from copying or stealing someone’s intellectual property.
I could be wrong. Maybe just some of us are the leaders in the industry and have no peers!
Why be so mean foammaster? What are you stewing about? Of course, I have peers. I give credit where credit is due. I am both confident and creative enough to do so. Even though the same courtesy has not always been shown to me.
I don’t need to build my business on the success or reputations of other peoples products, designs or ideas. I don’t really know where that puts me on the scale of peers. Do you?
Honestly foammaster, this kind of arguing tactic your using is improper anyway.
You make a statement about something and then imply that that statement is from me or something I would say. For example…
(Maybe just some of us are the leaders in the industry and have no peers!)
Then you argue against the statement, like I said it when when in fact only you did.
Then when you win your argument, you sit back smugly like you beat me in the argument … when in reality you just had an argument with yourself and I wasn’t even there! Someone else did this to me in the “earth to Barnfield thread”. It is always easy to win an argument that one has created with oneself.
As for the drucker quote…extremely lame.
Ouch! More meanness…? I don’t mind bantering back and forth on these issues foammaster but you gotta find a way to dull your sword a bit. It feels unnecessarily sharp.
See my notes to solosurfer above. I think you are misinterpreting the quote as an, endorsement of bad behavior, when it is more accurately just an observation of an existing and fairly common, observable, pattern of action. Peter Drucker is hardly the first one to have noticed it and mentioned it. I don’t like the reailty the quote points out anymore than you do. And I hate it when I see it in myself, but that doesn’t nullify the validity of the qoute.
Glad you answered Bill. Again as my post said, this was in no way directed at you or even Drucker. I just thought it was funny you posted that quote, because the fellow I mentioned does in fact use it along with some others out of the Bible to justify being a dog. I don’t say that about the guy from some petty issue we had that I would have forgiven. In fact, I have forgiven the guy on a personal note already. It still does not make him any less a dog and bad for surfing in our area. Were I to post his name (which I will not) many here would know who I am talking about.
On theft from Swaylocks: Guess I have not noticed. I mostly like to deal with the ideas - motivations of the sport, shaping and the industry.
Bill,
I absoulutely love the Drucker quote, it fits this industry and life in general so well.
Sluggo
Mark,
You take exception to me saying you are acting like a knuckle head however you have no problem throwing crap around about Gordon Clark. Have you ever even met the man? Have you ever experienced 1st hand any of the accusations you make about him? Have you ever considered that a lot of these are rumors spread by paranoid hypocrites like you that have mutated into something out of control? Or started by people that didn’t pay their bills or were hard to do business with?
Besides all this conspiracy theory only made people more paranoid and added to the lack of competition.
Sluggo
Gee, has this thread wandered off track again? It’s starting to smell like a fire hydrant around here.
Now Mark,
this is a good time to be nice and do the right thing.
I just got a cool video this afternoon called It was Better Back Then and I only got half way through it before the Super Bowl. So I will finish that and sleep on the page or two I just wrote. I will have my reply proofed and up by mid morning EST.
BTW IMHO every old schooler 70’s surfer should have this video. East or West. It’s not filled with giant Mavericks or perfect Indo. It’s guys tearing the heck out of 6" Cocoa Beach mush. East coast surfers and west coast. Amazing how much has been forgotten that can be done in small surf just because of the chip. These guys were riding short boards and catching waves long before the waves broke, and worked them all the way to the beach! This design and style stuff needs to be factored back into the equation. And I can tell you who has been saying that for the last five years too. The same guy who is featured prominently in this video. Initials GL.
Some shapers have never quit and still make boards that way that function with modern characteristics. Initials GM.
Good point. Common sense really. The modern shortboard is really a joke for your average surfer, which is why you have many that quit after five or ten years or go to longboarding permently.
Greg’s agenda has always (emphasis mine) appeared to be to promote Stryo/Epoxy boards and bash PE/PU, as Clark’s had always appeared to be the opposite.
Jeesh Bill -
What can I say? This thread has drifted so far off track… With my apologies, might as well join in the fun? Here’s a page from one of the old Clark catalogs… (note designer)
