I suppose we’ll never hear what Barnfield thinks on compensation
.
The administration has their lawyers review the situation every 45 days so the enemy won’t know what we’re up to. Don’t worry about your civil rights. We’re handling it.
==Alberto Gonzalez
Howzit E-pacman, Maybe Bill is in the doldrums thinking about all the 1 dollars he could have gotten for making a plug for a mold. Watched a progrqam on PBS last night about the coastal land wars going on and some right in your neck of the woods. Seems a real shame about how much of the coast is being denied to the public.Aloha,Kokua
Aloha guys
Sorry I had to bail out early on my thread. It was getting crazy and it seemed very few actually read what I said or asked. Rather there was a lot of knee jerk reaction with little attention to the original intention of the thread.
I won’t be able to spend much time on this thread anymore as things have stacked up on me and I have way too much to do. But here are some thoughts.
To be clear… This was never about me or MY compensation…why would anyone go there. I don’t think I even had any current blanks in the Clark Catalog.
Think Noble now, look for the high road.
Clark created only the foam. What we have all come to like about particular blanks is the “DESIGN” of the blank and that is the result of the DESIGNERS expertise. Sure there are varied rockers but they work because the designer accommodated for some varied rockers in the quality design of the plug.
I don’t see why everyone couldn’t grasp this and how they all spun off into a bunch of muck about Legalities, Clark, Patents, Copyrights, etc. None of which is relevant to my question. The design came from the Designer and like even Clark did, he should be acknowledged in someway more. Shouldn’t he?
If I licensed one of my old plugs to Walker, would some other new blank producer be able to copy one of My old Clark blanks, made from that same plug and make a mold and then compete with the same blanks from Walker off my plug? I think not.
These blank designs aren’t some lost dogs with no tag on them that anyone can take home for profit or abuse. We know exactly who the puppy is, who made them and in most cases, who still has the original plugs and of course they still have a loving owner! Ha!
Is there any difference in stealing the design from me via copying my old Clark Blank, or copying my new Walker Blank? Both from the same plug. I think not! Even though the quality of the copy of the copy may be poor it is still clearly an attempt to rip off the original design for profit.
Legalities aside it is clear that someone who doesn’t have a design is scamming one from someone else who does.
They are taking someone’s good design, with a good name and reputation, just so that they won’t have to create their own or pay someone to create what they can’t do themselves… All so that they can exploit it for commercial reasons as though it were theirs.
I should comment here that the reason there were never any Al Merrick blanks is because he didn’t want to give out his designs without proper compensation and he didn’t feel Clarks offer was worth it.
How many shapers would have scrambled to work from a Merrick blank?!? Plenty of course.
I on the other hand did shape a few blanks but I also never thought the compensation was appropriate. Still the blanks in my era were horrible, thick, twisted beasts that needed upgrading so I could make decent boards. That is the only reason I did blanks. It wasn’t to get my name in the catalog or be a cooler dude for having done so.
Those older will remember how there was little connection between one blank or another and it was always a crap shoot to get a blank similar to what you wanted to shape. We had a whole plan for matched quivers of blanks that Clark was interested in.
I had also shared those “quiver” concepts with other shapers I knew, who soon used them to create their own versions of matched quivers of blanks. These are what you guys have been blessed with shaping all along and probably don’t realize how nightmarish is was previously. Once others were shaping blanks that were close enough for me, I didn’t need to make anymore plugs as the need was met.
One last request…NO LEGAL DISCUSSION… keep it to the high road of fairness, morality and how you would like to be treated if you were the blank designer of note and everyone began capitalizing and profiting on your blank designs.
Howdy Bill. Certainly it is easy to put myself in the shoes of a blank designer and see how it would be reasonable to feel undercompensated. Seems logical and fair.
But, that got me trying to think of a similar situation in which the designer is separately compensated, apart from the manufacturer who incorporates that design.
What about the guy who came up with ergo bars on bikes? Seems like every handlebar manufacturer now offers an ergo bar, whether the bar is carbon, alloy, etc. Must have been a good idea. Does he get paid for each handlebar that uses his design? Possibly, but not that I’m aware of.
That’s probably not the best analogy. Blanks are an unusual thing, being a roughed out design of a customized final…but I couldn’t think of a better one right now.
aloha,
As the other thread clearly demonstrated the legalities are either and or, not conducive, expired, limited in scope, expensive, or do not apply. I have an alternative, a proposal, that I can post, but only if you wish to hear it. I think it can be made to accommodate all your wishes and expectations or as close as possible. It came to me yesterday and the more I thought about it the more it made sense. Humbly submitted for your approval.
Think of it as a preformed unbaked pizza crust that popout manufacturer Popa John’s uses. If I started using his specs and recipe on my pizza crust, would I be infringing on his design if I added a few more things like baked in cheese, after all it is an unfinished baked good until you… just kidding I just couldn’t help myself.
-Jay
No. It is not ethical to copy a designers plug without agreed upen compensation. Legalities are frequently out of line with ethics and shouldn’t be substituted one for the other. Mike
American Blanks will be compensating the designers for some of the blanks that will be offered. I have committed to certain designers to pay a small royalty for their designs, more as a token of respect than a big money issue. The compensation should allow them to take their “significant other” out to a nice dinner once in a while. The cost for these rocker templates will be added to the cost of the blank and isn’t enough to break the bank. You the consumer have the choice. There will be the generic version or a close tolerance blanks…
More to come...
Ken
What good are these plugs doing anyone, including the designer, if they are only “intellectual property?” I see where you’re coming from, but builders need reliable blanks now, not after a startup company goes through a testing phase to see what’s most functional or marketable. I believe that Clark deserves as much of the credit as the designer, as he had to create the mold, in hopes that it would gain acceptance and be a marketable commodity. Since Clark isn’t around, how would one go about coming up with fair compensation for a blank design? I think you touched on it in your post, and that is that the blank designers didn’t create the plug for compensation, it was more for their own need for a reliable, easy to shape, close tolerance blank.
Of course, as Walker Foam is in the best position to rebuild these molds, maybe he will compensate the designer if he chooses to use their plugs. However, if Walker, the ozzie, brazilian, or any other blank manufacturer can produce functional blanks of their own design that are readily accepted, then your point will be moot anyway.
Measurements will always just be measurements. Molds and plugs are a whole different category. For example: If I build a wall with traditional measurements using 2x4’s and I space the 2x4’s 16" on center or 24" on center and I frame the door opening out @ 38" x 82" with a traditional header and a window opening framed out @ 36" x 38". Does anyone know where to send that $1?
I think Clark and the people that have worked closely with him have set the industries standards. Someday their blank measurements will be called the traditional measurements.
Paul
anyone who cuts eps for themself and shapes by hand would be an idiot to copy the clark catalog. It would be a waste of foam. Clark foam being refered to as a close tolerance blanks is a joke compared to how close you can get with an EPS cut foam plug. It’s just like the old days, but eps you can safely cut to the finished rocker if you are good. you admit you made the plugs for yourself to make it easier to shape and to get a consistant product. by whatever agreement you had with clark, you also made it easy and more consistant for every other tom, dick and harry in the world of shaping. now pandora’s box is complete and one UNETHICAL owner holds the key. just hope he doesn’t call it quits without notice and throw the key up like a jump ball in madison square garden.
but your question isn’t about the backyarder but the person who offers the clark catalog in EPS and makes a profit off it. Unethical you ask?? if I build it they will come or they are coming so I build it?
Like a manager of a methodone clinic the addicted sheep are coming. all taking the low down smack fo clarkese…can you front me a 10’1"Y man, I got an order and need it real bad. Or better yet, I need a 9’1Y top with a 9’4"b bottom so the cnc can make my cut. Siiiiiiiixxxxxxxxxtwooooooooooo Ceeeeeeeeeeeeee or I am going to go into withdrawls.
Like the methadone clinic manager, my EPS will help them get through this tough time, but years of addiction on the urethane has done much damage. just like sheep. stuck in a rut with the pimp leader daddy gone on permenant vacation and ain’t never coming back. They need a fix and need it now. So clark catalog initially.
So the quick fix is to get them through, knowing the foam will be wasted, knowing if you could sit down with each shaper, measure their final product and give them something with the exact rocker they want( what, no more skinning, chopping off, taking off, adding on rocker???), give them a nice deck and outline just waiting to be quickly finished and the blinding white foam…ahhhhhhh… I see the light. Not even close to the wasteful clark catalog.
Rehab is tough on the whole family. It’s too bad the sins of the father became the sins of the son’s. I can’t blame the shapers though, mostly the father of foam and his limited number of designers who made molds for his inferior product. We got by all these decades with what all us sheep thought was the best, but the new era of surfboards has arrived. The current EPS clark catalog offered is only the start. Very soon the designer will befriend the EPS blank manufacturer and only needing to give numbers and no mold, and they will be smartly compensated per each unit sold to others using that design.
For all you old school that insist on an ankle high mess of foam, we can keep you satisfied also for an additional fee for all that wasted foam you insist on having.
High road?? give me a break. go ahead, cast the first stone. Unethical??? sure is. the way the urethane surfboard industry was left hanging by one person…totally shameful!!! It’s hard to comment totally because I don’t know what agreement the designer had with clark. I think I have said enough and it’s time to start talking clarkese again and be a servant to the poor junkies of the urethane mind set.
I’m coming, I’m coming…stop drooling and take your 6’2"c eps with you. I know it’s bright, put on your shades. Oh, word on the street is you are holding an unethically manufactured product so meet me on the low road for the next transaction.
The original thread with 82 posts is over in the “Industry Talk” section. Just to refresh everyone’s recollection, here is the bottom line of Bill’s original post…
It wouldn’t seem unreasonable, that anyone looking to benefit commercially off of any existing Blank Designers; blank designs, names or reputations, should in fairness, seriously consider compensating the Designers appropriately for it.
In an ideal world of course it isn’t unreasonable. As Bill pointed out elsewhere in his post, the general specs have been published and posted in numerous venues for the world to see and IMO, therein lies the problem…
In the cut throat “real” world as we know it, protecting private property becomes more and more difficult as more and more people engage in copying in one form or another. Napster, Kazaa and other file sharing networks might be a good example of where people’s personal lines are drawn ethically. How many people here have uploaded or downloaded a copyrighted song… even one? Ever hop a fence to gain access to a surf spot?
Discussing any of this without getting “legal” (sorry Bill) is pretty difficult once we’re past phase one in accepting the “It wouldn’t seem unreasonable” aspect of paying royalties to blank designers.
Keith’s analogy of bicycle handlebars is actually a pretty good one…
Private property rights in regards to real estate might be another. For example, if I own a chunk of real estate on the beach and people have crossed my property for “X” number of years without being challenged, my property (or at least access across it) can become public domain. I don’t have the right at that point to charge access fees. If I periodically post “No Trespassing” signs and call the cops regarding tresspassers, I have maintained my interest in the property and can exclude people at will.
Did Clark or any of the blank designers ever make much of an attempt to protect their private interests?
Perhaps it’s not too late for Bill or the other blank designers to claim their turf and file a cease and desist order against blank manufacturers using their named blanks or designs? Basically file that claim and demand royalties for each blank sold. I doubt if many of the blank manufacturers are going to cough it up voluntarily even if it’s the right thing to do.
PS - I’d be interested in reading Mark Spindler’s proposal and already wonder how many blank manufacturers and/or shapers would be willing to accept it.
Thanks John.
My proposal has just been sent out for review by a former Clark Foam blank designer. He had three molds. I will wait for him to read it and get back to me before I post it here.
I’ll admit it’s just a rough draft. Not much more than an outline at this point in time. Mark
Howzit John, One thing I learned years ago about private property and how after years of people crossing it til it becomes public is all you have to do is put up a no tresspassing sign to keep it from going into the public hands. In Costa Rica if you own a piese of land and don’t use it or improve it for 6 months the Ticos can just move on to it and it’s there’s, this was told to me by a Costa Rican real estate person when I was looking into buying there,kinda scary. But how this relates to the blanks industry is a little confusing to me. But then again I’m on my first cup of coffee this morning.Aloha,Kokua
One last request…NO LEGAL DISCUSSION… keep it to the high road of fairness, morality and how you would like to be treated if you were the blank designer of note and everyone began capitalizing and profiting on your blank designs.
Few people will end up making any real money making blanks from whatever source. Some will, but most will end up in the financial hole that the promise of a quick buck often brings. The biggest number of people that are in trouble are the people who shape, glass and sand boards. Who has really stepped up to help anyone? When times are good, everyone is your friend. When times are bad, you find out who your friends are.
American Blanks will be compensating the designers for some of the blanks that will be offered. I have committed to certain designers to pay a small royalty for their designs, more as a token of respect than a big money issue. The compensation should allow them to take their “significant other” out to a nice dinner once in a while. The cost for these rocker templates will be added to the cost of the blank and isn’t enough to break the bank. You the consumer have the choice. There will be the generic version or a close tolerance blanks…
More to come…
Ken
Ken,
Speaking of ethics and respect. EPS close tolerance blanks…what a concept. Funny, you were not doing them before the Orlando Surf Expo. We were there with what I believe to have been the first EPS close tolerance blanks on the market. Hank Johns even said and I quote “What a great concept for EPS! Great job guys! Your way ahead of my new blank company American Blanks.” So, if your going to give out props maybe they should go out to everyone that deserves them. Not just the famous people. Home Grown Foam USA would like any designer that has made a plug for Clark Foam to please contact us so we can arrange a compensation plan for their rockers to be added to our new blank catalog. Also, any other shapers are encouraged to contact us so we can create a new rocker for them or we can add their existing custom rocker to our catalog as well. surfstheword@aol.com
Looking forward to hearing from everyone,
Paul
Special thanks to Pete Daley of Uprising Surfboards, Daytona Beach for letting us help him create a 6’7" mini noserider blank; we will be adding that to our new catalog. (6’7"UPR)
Hi Kokua -
It has nothing to do with blanks. It was just meant to illustrate the concept of private vs public property and how one aspect of that has been interpreted by attorneys and judges.
Howdy Bill.SNIP
What about the guy who came up with ergo bars on bikes? Seems like every handlebar manufacturer now offers an ergo bar, whether the bar is carbon, alloy, etc. Must have been a good idea. Does he get paid for each handlebar that uses his design? Possibly, but not that I’m aware of.
SNIP
aloha,
Aloha Keith
Since you used bikes… how about this one. Frames are welded up on a JIG. How about if you created the best jig in the world and everyone knew that the best bikes were ones that were welded up while held in your JIG.
They other guys began copying your JIG and selling it with the same name and even boasting that their jig was copied right off of your JIGs specs.
Not the best analogy either but just because the blank is an interm step doesn’t mean it is somehow worthless. Every shaper, you and me included, has their prefered blanks to use. The fact that you can choose one over the other is precisely due to that blanks designer.
All I am saying is that the new blank manufacturers should give him the credit he is due if they are copying his specs, and capitolizing on his blank name, blank reputation and good will.
These guys should be sending the Designer a buck or two a blank or whatever the designer works out with them and then everyone would be cruising along on the high road instead of the one we are apparently on now.
thats it, Im making a U turn…
I’ll apologize in advance for not reading every word or key points being made but,
if I were in the biz making boards, and could pay the bills, get a decent profit, support my family, etc etc…
Ahhh yes decisions,
if I were using a designer’s specs, I would pay a small royalty to the blank designer…and feel good about it.
So what’s a couple of bucks. Why the heck not?
“ok so I made 50 sticks using this designer’s specs…so here’s a Ben F”
…send it to 'em for Christmas.
Like Chippy says,
Share the stoke…
A lot of points on both sides. But, the designers need to speak for themselves. If it belongs to them, its their decision and only their voice can make this clear.