Dear Bert, here is the interesting aspects of basalt fiber. In its’ raw neat form without a matrix, it is only about 12% higher in strain-to-failure than conventional e-glass. I’ve had about ten little strands of this fiber since 1989 when a U.S. college student invented it as a final thesis. Now 12% doesn’t sound that impressive, but as you know in compossites, it is. Here’s where it gets really cool. No factory in the U.S. has ever been able to manufacture basalt fiber. The temperature required is much higher than glass fiber. PPG and Owens Corning have no interest in persuing it because they both have their own patents on different glass formulas which you may know includes many other ingredients other than just silica, many of them being carcinogen suspects. The beauty of basalt fiber is that it is nothing more than dirt shoveled out of the ground, heated to a very high temp and pushed through very expensive bushings. Different tracts of basalt from around the world create slightly different properties. The best discovered so far are in former Soviet countries and a huge tract in Eastern Washington. Two independent companies in the U.S. have tried to process it and had meltdowns in the reactors due to the elevated temperatures. They’ve lost millions and basically sent some investors to the loony ward. I had opportunities to invest but luckily stayed clear. Now here’s the very best part of the story…when you saturate it with epoxy, the strength properties grow from 12% higher than glass to 92% higher. Most surfboard builders don’t think about this, and they shouldn’t, but it is really important to try to match a fiber’s elongation % with the matrix elongation %. This is why Kevlar and Carbon really don’t have much of a real functional use in sporting equipment that takes a beating. Basalt fiber is a perfect harmonic marriage with common street epoxies, while glass has a little higher elongation. So when basalt and epoxy load up, they fail as a unit instead of two lower energy failures. Here is the good news. The Russian Defense Program sunk heaps of cash into buiding three factories to build this fiber. I am currently getting it in ball form and having it woven or knit into whatever patterns I need. All of my knits are about 4 times heavier than you would want and very uni-biased patterns. However if I can find a sample from about four years ago, I’d love to give it to you to try. I had a 5oz plain weave processed by Hexcel’s looms. The fiber is brownish-gold, but looks kind of like carbon when wetted. It also doesn’t seem to itch! Let me know if your interested in that or any other crazy future materials. Oh yeah, the modulus is just an RCH higher than glass. Love D. Pumpernickel
I was working in a boatyard that had a contract to build Fiberglass Hull Mine Sweepers for the US Navy.The contractors were based in Italy and I saw samples of glass and composites that have never even made it to the USA.One of them was a 6ounce type glass that due to the way it was woven refused to unravel.No more strings!I never could find out the whole deal but it was supposedly from Russia.The Italians I worked with were absolute masters in this field and they said the Russians had taken it to an even higher level.Interesting.
Basalt is a rock (as opposed to a mineral) so its chemical composition varies from location to location. I couldn’t find any info on the manufacturing technique but if the entire rock is heated to its melting point and then manipulated into a fiber, the impurities will be much more than silica based glass. The shape of the mineral is more related to cancer than its chemical composition so if you are stretching olivine into glass fibers or silica…it won’t make much difference to your lungs. Also, this stuff hasn’t been used that much so worker’s exposure has be relatively small…in other words this stuff may not be any safer than similar materials made of different minerals. If you want to make this stuff, why not set up your mill on the slopes of Mauna Loa and sluce off the molten stuff on its way to the Pacific…unfortunately you’ll only be able to use it on boards for the Big Island…we surely wouldn’t want to raise the wrath of Mother Pele, would we? Lee V. playing Ambrose’s straight man…
Basalt Fibre is used already in the US for Snowboard building. Go to http://www.lib-tech.com click on tech and then the yellow link at the bottom saying “golden Flece” And turn on the sound to hear some russian talk… you can go on and download the russion promo film for their product… cool stuff. Lib-tech does produce snowboards and skateboards… Beware if they ever decide to jump at surfboards [smile]) a great source for materials is http://www.materialconnexion.com/intro.htm they list all kind of materials…you need a membership…but theire database is great.
Dear Lee, the basalt rock isn’t literally shoveled out of the ground into the reactor. The impurities are eliminated as much as possible, at least enough to be 92% higher in strain-to -failure when compared to glass. The suspect carcinogens I’m talking about are not the silica, but a few of the other dozen chemicals that PPG and Owens Corning add to the batch. Silica as you mentioned can also be gnarly, but it’s low compared to the additives. You’re correct, basalt may create problems we don’t know about yet, but so far it looks a bit nicer than glass. I don’t sell it as a raw material, I’m just presenting a few interesting prospects for anyone who wants to try something new. It works, I buy a butt-load of it and have been for quite a while now. Love D. Pumpernickel
Hey man, I called those guy up and asked them to send me some samples. They dropped the ball and I still haven’t heard from them. Whassup? Rich
yea delbert real interested…only prob is currently using 1oz to 4oz weaves, to get the weight to where i want it in conjunction with the other sandwich materials those size weaves do well, especially in r&d coz only team guys get new stuff to begin with and unless i give them boards that are lighter and perform better than the best boards they ever had ,there not happy…what you said about the strain to failure ratio is so true ,classic examples are carbon and kevlar put them with polyester resins and you waste you time coz the polyester fails way before the fabric …but use epoxy and you get a better package…more so than either component by itself …(example alloys) what lee said as well was interesting in the fact that silica is present in basalt ,but to varing amounts around the globe ,in liquid lava i think the runnier stuff has a higher silica content. silica is the lowest melting tempeture ,so i would have to conclude that this basalt fibre comes from thicker lava with a higher melting point and less silica present …interestingly thicker magma = way more violent eruptions, and heavier volcanic activity .wasnt mt st helens one real heavy eruption…isnt that in washington???.. myself personally am convinced that epoxy resins actually work better with organic fabrics …coz when you combine them with glass its really more of a mechanical bond just like steel in concrete, if you smash it up you can get the steal out again…where as some of the organic fabrics ive used no mater how much you give it there really locked in together…problem is they all look crap… but yea delbert definatly interested if i can get some in light enough fabric… regards BERT
I’ll try to have a little sample woven to 4oz. or less by Hexcel. The properties of basalt vary greatly depending on what tract they come from. The current supply from Russia is the 92% stronger version at this moment. It was tested by an independent lab at a university in the midwest. I also have some futuristic skins that will probably be ready to release in the next year or so. These have no epoxy or thermoset resin of any sort. You will be able to skin a custom board on the spot in minutes and surf it immediately. It will be very safe for the craftspeople and quite a bit friendlier for the environment. Dig this; I can take a claw end hammer and beat this skin(at less weight than a normal glass job) and the claws rebound and don’t penetrate the skin. However the foam I’m using does slightly deform, but just slightly. P.U. foam or styrene would be completely anialated. This foam rebounds. I’m talking about beating it like a madman! The blank molds (moulds down under) will be very expenive, so each step of progress must be very calculated or as you know , you can throw away alot of $$$$ very fast. Totally recycleable foam though…Here’s some food for thought…did you know a bulletproof Kevlar weave is only bulletproof until you put epoxy on it. A high modulus resin makes cracks propigate right through the fabric. Your observation of concrete and glass is correct. The epoxy and glass are mainly sticking together because of mechanical entrapment and a good sizing wash on the fibers as a primer. Basalt dosn’t need a sizing wash! This other skin that I’m developing goes years beyond the basalt technology. Most of the shapers on this site will think it is too spooky to even think about. However I’d love to keep some progressive craftsmen like yourself in the mix. And here’s another benefit…Asia will have no advantage with these new materials! Boards will last so long that there will be value added to custom shapes and custom flexes. Love Delbert Pumpernickel
Aa lava is the slow klinky type while Pahoehoe is the fast moving stuff. They are diferentiated not by chemical make up but by the temperature. Pahoehoe is hot, aa is cooler. The term “silica” (Si) is bandied about but I think you are really refering to silicate (SiO4) or silica dioxide (SiO2). Most of the minerals in basalt are silicates (various metals bound to SiO4). Silica dioxide or quartz is rare in basalt (the exception being tholeiitic basalts). The presence of quartz in a “lava” is a sure sign that the volcano is explosive (Mt St Helens). It is explosive because; if there is quartz in the magma, there is dissolved water in the magma too. Once the water saturated magma reaches the near surface and pressure is reduced, the water expands (read explodes). Just like shaking up a soda and opening the can. Basalt has no quartz, no water, no explosions. It flows… I’d like to know what type of silicate is used in the basalt fibers? Olivine?
Its not impossible to mould surfboards with the same food grade plastics in coke bottles…I have disscussed this with a plasitcs manufacter he says it could be done…althought the tooling up is very costly… Hey heres one for you…There are scientists growing complex shapes using laser cureing techniques and ultrasound…Grow surfboards with thermocure monofilliment plastic…the internal structure of the board could be very complex to achive strength and correct flex with an outer shell case hardend…to allow for atmospheric changes the board could be over pressurised so that the variable differences dont effect the shape severely… Then for bouyancey have flood tanks that take on prescribed amounts of fluid so there are no airbubbles swashing around creating interferance… What if we took a couple of tips from fast jets, “variable rocker” (flex tail surfboards) in jets the main wing has moveable trailing edges and on more modern jets on the forward surfaces as well…these surfaces are able to move to change attack angles and release angles giving variable rocker lines for manauvering, another way by useing the shockwave intersection of the main wing and the tail wing…with all thse variables they basicly are big surfboard fins with variable rocker…except the large fin at the front has been put to the rear on FP and we havent worked out how to get leading and trailing edges to move with predictable precision…although shockwaves are being utillised… Oops sorry getting of the subject of basalt…I wonder if you could make basalt useing “COld fusion” eg in nature of cold fusion “stomachs” http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html
I heard once that the world’s purest basalt is here in NJ in the Watchung Mts. I live on top of the 1st Watchung. There are quite a few quarries around here. One abandoned quarry on the Second Watchung was filled a few years ago with tailings from a 2 mile deep hole drilled into the Second Watchung by Hofstra University. Their findings: supposedly the Watchungs are the oldest Mts in the world: 200 million yrs. So I guess my driveway is made with some pure old basalt. I dont know if it would make a good surfboard fabric, though. However, if anyone wants some for testing let me know. http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/j_b_bennington/1cnotes/volcanoes.html
that’s so cool!
geology people- profession or hobby? if its a profession, what do you do? just interested. more importantly- basalt fiber- how can i get some that i can use on a board? (not a big ball) i remember a thread here a while back with a link to sudaglass.com is this the “92% stronger” stuff? thanks
Professional engineering geologist. Evaluate earthquakes, landslides and other geotechnical hazards that affect construction…I don’t deal much with volcanos in San Diego so I had to pull some books off the shelf for some of that info. (I haven’t written the word “tholeiitic” since a final exam in grad school 20 years ago). I wish the noodle man would show up to put his 2 cents in on this stuff. Sounds good and expensive…
lee V- thanks for the info. im an earth sci teacher but i do a lot of side work with env. impact statements/ hydrology. sounds like a great job you have out there (plenty of work for sure). im just starting the whole shaping thing and i feel like this site has served as a second grad school. (if only glassing were as easy as finals) by the way- im an archive hound and i have the pic of your arc tailed edge board set as my wallpaper- unbelievable board. did you do the glassing? i can only imagine the heartache that caused someone.
Hey Mark Spindler, Your t*ts on about New Joisey basalt! That is where the two attempts to manufacture it in the U.S. took place. The Jersey government kicked down giant energy-use tax breaks for all the power they would consume in the reactors. Unfortunately they designed a giant sphere shaped melting pot that was so efficient that once the first batch hit the target melt temperature, the temp. just kept on rising until there was a meltdown, literally. Millions of dollars down the drain and businessmen mad dashing for Canada. On the next attempt, they hired Russian or Ukrainian engineers to work out the kinks. They still haven’t produced a fiber at just the right temperature to keep it from fraying while coming out of the bushings. I think they hired the Russian 's Potzie Webber. Oh well, on that note I think I’m going to call Rusty Preisendorfer and tell him I’ll pay him $20 an inch for a real Fat Penguin, and tell him he actually has to dust off the planer and shape it himself…no ghost shapers…no Stu, no Terry, no Hoy. Oh yeah…for you T.E…the Coke bottle plastics you’r e talking about for surfboards…funny thing…a famous Aussie race car champ claims to have a patent on the use of PET plastic on surfboards and anything else you can thermoform it on. His website is www.armacel.com. His patent wouldn’t last a day in court. He didn’t realize the process has been around in the cheap furniture industry for years. But at least he’s thinking. I didn’t know my basalt had any silica in it. I really don’t know much about rocks…except that a concave base makes a top-notch skipper. Love D. Pumpernickel
Those tinkering Ukranians and Russians…They are smart guys, working with bugets 1/10 of western countries…
well thats the last time im gonna comment on something im not an expert on … professional surfboard builder = hobby geologist…serious question for lee tho… can you have lava of the same temperature,but different viscosity because of different (elemental chemical ) make up??? regards BERT
Good question! Yes you can. By varying the ingredients in the melt you will get different crystallization temps, gas, and liquid components and therefore viscosity of lava. For any given volcano however, any difference in lava type is controlled more by temperature (there is only one magma chamber and pretty much one melt mix per volcano). You won’t see basaltic lava pouring out of a rhyolite (quartz rich volcanic rock) dome because basalt and rhyolite cannot exist together in the same magma chamber. There is no such thing as a “pure” basalt because it is made of a mix of minerals. I think it may be “good” or the “best” because it was rich in the right minerals for the fiber manufacturing. I was at a lecture last night on the geology of Rappa Nui and the Marquesas…I kept looking past the rocks to check the surf in every photograph!
Lee, the link below is to a company selling basalt fabrics and they have a U.S. contact number. Given your profession they’d probably be happy to talk to you (and maybe send a free sample we could work with, eh?) http://sudaglass.com/fabrics.html