Since I am trying to take the leap into vacuum bagging/compsand boards, I just read through Bert’s major thread on the topic. https://www.swaylocks.com/groups/vacumn-forming-sandwich-construction
As you all probably know, it’s very informative and encouraging (for me).
While reading, I kept saying to myself “this was posted 14 years ago” and I couldn’t believe the kind of information Bert provided. Yet currently in the present, there doesn’t seem to be a huge bagging, compsand explosion of board/brands flooding the surf market. Why is that?
Also, throughout Bert’s thread, he kept saying over and over ‘this technology isn’t new, you should see the new stuff I’m working on now’. Well, now 14 years later, what have we discovered about Bert’s ‘new’ stuff? Was it cerex, carbon, cork, etc?
And how about his contour mat. Does anybody use contour mats like he created? Again, why/why not?
In my area, every local shaper makes boards pretty much the standard, hand shaped, hand laminated way. And although there’s nothing wrong with it, that technology is 50+ years. And sure, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, but I would have thought new technology would move the process forward by now, and that vacuum bagging + compsand boards was that forward movement.
So what can we take away from Bert’s mini time capsule of a thread? I would love to know your opinions or other observations that I’ve missed.
I don’t really keep up with the industry in this regard, but aren’t there a bunch of composite companies, Sunova (Bert), Coil, Surftech, etc.??
Also, there are guys here on Swaylocks like everysurfer and lemat who are always experimenting with different composite recipes.
And I can’t answer for the shapers in your local area, or anyone else, I’m just a backyarder, not a pro. But the old foam blank, hand laminated resin and fiberglass skin works great for me, my boards last a really long time if I keep up on ding repair, which is relatively easy. Most of my boards will likely still be rideable after they put me in the ground.
I’m not a big advocate of the progress for progress’ sake mindset, like wow this tech is 50 years old how stale, but I’m not against building a better board either. Its just that “better” in industry terms often seems to relate more to marketing, mass-production and labor cutting, than to actual performance improvements.
Ive been asking myself the same questions after studying a bit.
Since i went there, i guess the answer goes like this:
If you are a company, you have/want to work cost oriented. Imagine you produce 10 boards a day… You would need a really big and expensive vac, ten sacks and you would spend a load of time loading and unloading the sacks, which needs to be paid as well. Also since you got to shove the board into the bag, it needs twice the space.
So since most people are cheap fucks not spending 800 on a board ( so am i), its better for your food on the table, if you use the space for twenty boards and sell them for 400…
Also why would anyone in the industry build a board that is indestructable? That would be very stupid since you lose a customer every time 
Thats how business people think.
Im with you on the advancing… But it most likely will be something done in the backyard
Compsand boards take way more time and are far more difficults to masterise than standard build so need to cost more. Few surfer want to pay more even if boards are durable so there are few products on market.
Sometimes old technology is just better. Between the cost factor, difficulty to manufacture and the ride characteristics of composite boards they will likely never be much more of the market share than they currently are.
Thanks for the responses. I see your points. I went back to the thread and Bert touched on some of them.
He said he and one other guy can create 20 boards a week. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad in a production setting but it doesn’t seem terrible. Add a few more guys and it easily increases.
Bert also said there’s less shaping, and bagging takes the same amount of time as laminating. So I’m not totally convinced on the time argument.
As for materials, at the time of that post (now 15 years) he said the blank cost 150 AUD. I’m guessing prices have dropped since then. So, maybe cost is a factor.
One thing that interested me in that thread was near the end. People started commenting on getting a compsand board to ‘feel the same’ as a PU board.
I believe that the formula never worked out, and compsands just ‘feel’ different. This, plus the big brands don’t want to make an indestructible board. That is, of course, my opinion and hopefully I can see for myself what the difference is like one of these days.
The comment about the next technological advancement coming from a backyarder is great.
As McDing has said
“shape comes first”
I never got so far into the process as to build actual compsands but I did get far enough into it to pull off some veneered boards and some wet-lams in the bag with innegra over stringerless EPS. And those boards do seem like they’re bombproof. But they’re not any lighter or more responsive than a decent epoxy hand lamination over EPS. And since an epoxy board will hold up just fine (in our local conditions) so long as you don’t abuse it we run into a point of diminishing returns.
Now if my local conditions were heavy like LeMat builds for I’d be looking for the more refined weight vs strength compromises, but I’m not buildings boards for that.
I think the veneered boards are a good compromise between light weight and durability but I’ve mostly gone back to epoxy over PU for the smaller boards because they’re simple to do, they’re easy to fix if there is a ding and they’re as rugged at the rails as almost all other build types except for the innegra wrap. If I was doing really high volume boards where the additional weight was a penalty (as for SUPs) and not a feature (as for the traditional singlefin longboards) then I’d go back to the lightweight EPS with veneers.
A well made «exotic composits » board can be as good as a traditional build one if shape is fine for wave and rider. nowadays stringered eps/epoxy seems to become a traditional build for many surfers.
exotic material and technology, most are standard in other industries, allowed to make far durable board at same weight than pu/pe this is there only benefit.
A pu/pe shortboard can be made in one day with uv resin with around 150€ investment in a simple room. A full sandwich à la Bert board take at least double time, and money : eps is cheap but sandwich core is pricey, double glass contain and epoxy resin + need a vacuum pump, vacuum consommable, etc…
Deck and rails reinforced on eps core is for me a good choice, easy to masterise protect eps where it’s needed and allow a more «natural » flex feel.
Bert also left out allot of important pieces
like his use of pre-infused wood skins which reduced the weight gain during the bagging process
also there’s still the ongoing battle between core versus skin
Bert was a skin proponent others have been on the core is the most important component
also core thickness versus stiffness of the shell was never really defined
it was more about thickness between different cores
no matter shape is the most important aspect of a surfboard as others have said
But if you find a shape you love
building it with some of these alternative methods just makes it last a long time
you’d have to be a bit crazy to shape a surfboard wih flat insulation foan and a belt sander with a 40 grit belt or a 2’ long 2x4 with the same belt cut and stapled to it
but that’s how we did it in those days
if you machine cut your shapes and have a big enough compressor and oven you can pop these out in a bunch in a day
it’s all in your prep work
just like making makizushi rolls for new years
I think Bert is still doing Balsa over EPS. Others like Coil, Libtech, Mannkine, etc. are using different materials.
Down side of vacuum bagging is air leaks. Just did a balsa deck and I had a leak somewhere. I tested the pump before hand, so I know that part is working perfectly. I was too lazy to find where the leak was so I just left the pump running. Nice to have an old industrial pump that can go for hours.
Post lam heat cure… mini van in the Hawaiian sun. Nice that Epoxy doesn’t have the strong odor like PU.
When Oneula and I got crazy and were neck deep into compsands I scored a rather large stash of Balsa wood made for model builders. I am still going through that wood after 10 years and will probably stop making them once that wood is used up.
If I wanted to take advantage of vacuum bagging, I’d learn vacuum lamination. Get that wired, and use carbon fiber, basalt fiber, or multi axial cloth. You’ll get a very strong lamination, and not have to do much once the board comes out of the bag.
not fully agry with you here, about vac bag lam. I thinck it’s not effective for thin glass skin of surfboard. vac bag lam allow to avoid air trap between fiber but with 1 or 2 layers of light open plain waves standard fiberglass and low viscosity resin we use for surfboards not so difficult to avoid this by hand. vac bag lam compact fiber on support so reduce skin thickness but because surfboard skins suffered compressive and flexural stress it’s not effective to reduce skin thickness. if you use appropriate resin elongation to break to match with fiber mechanicaly only advantage of low resin/fiber ratio is for tensil stress in fibers axes where fiber take all load. at low resin/fiber ratio vac lam stay porous so you have to use more resin over to seal. I speak about traditional vac lam tech with open release film and drain breather for vacuum and resin, not for tech with close film release which give a glossy seal finish but no lam air drain.
vac lam is necessary for thick skins made of lot of fiber which can gazes, low density fibers which want to float over resin.
I soaked it all up during the time. The process works well if you pay attention. The boards are so strong and light that i only make perhaps a board a year while not wanting to impinge on those folks in my Florida county that rely on income for making surfboards, and there are many well qualified folks that do so.
Mstar1.
This is a note of encouragment for you.
Have to totally disagree with your premise that vac bagging is not flooding the market. If fact, it is so common place that it’s only noted probably in the higher price of a board rather than boasting about the process. Every SUP, kiteboard,windsurfboard, foils, and many foil boards and surf boards are in fact vac bagged. Most boards in costco that are extremely inexpensive are vac bagged.The biggest brands have a vac bagged line. Many world supplied/marketed brands are all or have a vac bag line of boards. I can look, touch and pick up a board and know it is vacuum bagged and not because of a label.
So what can vac bagging do for you?
First it can totally change how you think you should shape and build a board. I have never been trained to shape a board but I understand the “standard process”. How about you percisely wire cut your bottom rocker in your blank of extremly floppy or stiff foam. Vac bag straight up fiberglass or glass and wood or whatever. Throw a rocker stick in you bag with the pull and then you have a set rocker and bottom placed, you then shape the deck, vac bagg the top, add rails if you want then finish like a regular surfboard. Won’t find that in the shaping 101 video. This is just one example of what you can do when using a bag to build. Could bore you with dozens of other examples
Secondly, if no one else vac bags in your locale, guess who can properly repair an expensive vac bag board that is broke?
Third, though arguably like many say, it does take longer for a build, when you become proficient you can work on many boards per day with minimal shop space and due to vac bagging many of traditional steps of borad building are eliminated with some type of builds, example no need to sand the lap on deck from bottom pull because it is flat to foam if pull is properly exicuted. Filler coats are a thing of the past with any type of fiberglass builds.
lastly vag bagging is for the determined. Hard to half ass it without proper equipment and disposables. Learnning from Bert’s post is helpful. My first balsa/fiberglass/foam board was made in 1986. No outer glassing just epoxy resin outer finish. Had none of the right equipment but I got it done the hard way. Been hooked ever since. So much information on line to do it the right way you kinda have no excuse for failure. Perfecting your own techinique will come with time. If you have access to watch others do it and pay attention. Some of my most beneficial step savers and tecniques have been learned from others like Oneula and Sharkcountry. Any time I dropped off boards that I was doing for pro shops I payed attention to the traditional building that was going on. You still need to know how to fiberglass, cut fin boxes, make tail/nose blocks etc. Watching a pro can make all the difference and give you some confidence at the same time cuz they make it look easy.
If the challenge isn’t interesting or enjoyable why bother?
Pics from last week. 20 plus year old unusable clark blank salvaged for use with vac bagging techniques.
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/hCjcmNpBR+G+%25xNbJuG2QA.jpg
I have been away a long time but this is a topic I am deeply involved in. I’m a bagger. I got hooked on the way they ride and last. Probably ten years now. Was looking for a way to make balsa short boards light enough to be comparable to standard epoxy or pu. I am a boat builder by trade so bagging, infusion, prepreg, etc were all part of my work. What I found was that many factors come into play with this type of build. And I personally feel that the compsand build is better than the alternatives in the mid length boards. Short, high performance boards require some tweaking to the formula. But in mid length the strength to weight ratio and flex characteristics shine.
Yes, they are more labor intensive. FireWire, Sunova, etc have proven that with advanced mfg techniques they can be mass produced, but they have to compromise certain aspects of the process to allow this. I don’t mind the labor if it gives me the product I want. I also am only doing small batches at a time.
It is what I like to build. It is what I love to ride. Labor and materials are about double. So cost effectiveness in my small batch system is pretty sketchy. But I firmly believe in the boards I am turning out. They are beautiful and very tough. Almost the antithesis of the market board.
Aloha Johnny,
I really like what you had to say, in your above post.
I agree Bill, I gave it a “like”.
Honest heartfelt opinion, based on actual experience, with no financial motive… gold!!
I’m referring to using vac bagging with stronger fiber like Carbon, and other more exotic fabrics. Many of them come out better when they are vacuum laminated. If I wanted to vac bag regular fiberglass, I’d be looking at 3 layers of glass. Years ago a guy from Australia making windsurfboards told me he does 3 layers of glass and vacuum laminates the boards. The vacuum bag keeps the ratio of resin to glass optimum to keep weight down and strength up. The guys he was with said they are plenty strong for the pounding they get.
I’ve read all of Bert’s posts multiple times and always wanted to put together a set up to give it a go. Space, money and time being what they are though I always kept going back to the tried and true methods. A back yarder doing compsand made a lot more sence right after the demise of Clark Foam when access to quality blanks was scarce and new methods were being explored. Now quality blanks are easily purchased on the east or west coast from multiple vendors.
Just a quick side note on the Bert Burger manifesto. The paper was intended to get more people interested and doing composite building to add more creative input so some of the tougher aspects would get a fresh perspective. I used Burt’s paper simply as an outline. I had been vacuum bagging boat hulls up to 85’ as well as parts and pieces. I built boards in my own way and I continue to tweak my process. Burt was quite generous in opening up the composite process but it wasn’t completely altruistic. He was hoping some fresh ideas would help crack some aspects of the build he couldn’t quite get. There are still parts of the process and combinations of materials that need work but the idea was to spur fresh ideas.
Hi Johny fever, what you said about the compsand method favouring mid length boards is the same conclusion I came to,
i think I made the first compsand board to post a pic on swaylocks after Burt had written his thread, I made quite a few small boards but all were too stiff ,I made a jig to measure tail deflection under a given load and the finding was what was felt while surfing , some of the compsand boards were up to twice as stiff compared to the pu boards that I had taken the templates from ,
the last board I made was the the final version of my own journey through the compsand field ,wood veneer bottom @0.6mm ,this has more flex than a thicker balsa wood just because the sandwhich is thinner yet is stronger than 0.6mm balsa ,
3mm deck sandwhich with 4 oz under and 6 oz over ,3x5mm balsa for the rails
7ft 6 x20 1/4 x 2 1/2 flat bottomed bonzer ,
because the deck is stiff and the bottom skin Is thin ,the bottom skin can flex and absorb chop giving a very smooth ride ,also at 2 1/2 ins thinkness the compsand method gives really good strength but also aids flexibility in the whole board
Some pics here Seawindsurf.blogspot.com
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