Fin Solutions… strong plugs and is possible insert fcs fins too
Fin solutions I think is good in principle, but they have virtually no selections for fins, also LOKBOX accepts FCS fins as well which I beleive noone mentioned yet,
Fin solutions if they had an actual range of fins would be fine.
Lokbox also has an infinate range of fins, They will make any fin you want for thier boxes.
Quote:…the other day I watched Kelly Slater surfing the 2003 J-Bay contest. …He’s always riding FCS fins.
wouldn’t say he always rides FCS, seen some different plugs in his boards before.
There was i time he was riding Red-X fins,
I could be wrong and TOM could probbaly adress this the right way if I am. It was More when Red-X first started out and there was a financial issue with him getting on the fins.
EP,
…I prefer Red-X .
…2nd. would be Edge.
…I’ve been using Xs for awhile now.Never had a blow-out…Seen a couple…They were due to flying them…on the highway.
…By now any of the box systems that I have used in the past including glass-ons were in need of repair at least once.Not just spider fractures ,but unable to surf it types.I haven’t even put a single crack in any of the Xs in the same amount of time.Herb
Lokbox is pretty nice.
Strong box with slight built-in rocker. (Bigger footprint than Futures).
Strong connection between fin base and box.
Metal screw into metal threads.
Fin tab bends and fin ejects if you hit something.
Fiberglass fins from Rainbow.
Very clean results using vacuum jig.
oh, and adjustable (fore and aft) fins.
While I have glass-ons on my own boards, I do lots of repairs of other stuff. And the thing is, FCS plug repairs are definitely a no-brainer. ‘Collateral damage’ is usually light too, which I can’t say for other systems. Not having an allen key for 'em…look, the allen keys are a quarter ( 25 cents ) apiece - go a little nuts and get a bunch of 'em.
And there is this, which many seem to forget about. See, as I understand it ( though this may not be the case and I listened to the wrong guys ) , the things were meant to be breakaway fins in the first place. Hit something and the fin breaks off, without any major traumas to plug or board. You paddle in, take out the busted off tabs and put in new fins and in ten minutes you’re back in the water. If you want to be sure, you take a fine tooth saw or a small file and weaken the fins a skosh where the tab joins the fin body so it’ll definitely break away rather than busting plugs and the like. I’d much rather replace a cheap fin than have to repair a board with the associated loss of water time.
Of course, this is with the relatively inexpensive ‘composite’ plastic fins, of course, not the big bucks carbon fiber jobs. Hit something with those and you have problems.
for what it’s worth
doc…
Not hearing too much about Speeedfins. They look to be the most promising to me at this point.
I’m not a shaper/glasser, SO is there a reason no one is mentioning this system? Pro/Cons
speedfins was the worst hunk of fin system to come through this shop. Second in crap only to the OAM system.
Pools of laminating resin??? thtas just adding weight and they roll out really fast of the 8 demo sets we did, none of the riders kept the boards they all ended up on used racks within weeks.
They are redesigning that whole system now from what ive heard.
Regarding the FCS snap-off issue, I dont think that they will every get that concept to work right, in the beginning the fin would pul;l the plugs out… Everyone complained, so they weekend it then the fin bases were snapping in weak mushy 2 foot surf, everyone complained, cutting them is the best way, because you cant mold something to be weak in that 1 specfic area.
In my opinion weakening the base of your fins so that they will break off if you hit something is like loosening the lug nuts on your wheels so you won’t rip out your suspension if you hit a curb. We made Red X super strong. It’s up to you the customer or the laminator to determine how strong you want to build the board around our system. I’ve heard many more stories of amazement about how someone had an accident and no damage occurred. But, then again on superlightly glassed boards I have heard of catostrophic failures. Is that really a failure of the system? Sounds more like a misapplication. If you’re going for superlight weight disposable build schedules you will never get any attachment method better than glass on. But, if you want a board you can depend upon, put in Red X.
As far as Kelly Slater and Red X. Kelly was riding Excel at the end of his last contract with FCS. We even have a cover shot with the fins clearly visable (ER March 01’). But, Kelly made some missteps with regard to roylaties and we were left exposed to an FCS lawsuit. So, Kelly still rides FCS. That was one of the reasons that FCS claimed they were redesigning their entire system. We’re still waiting.
And for those that had problems with the hole through the deck. We made soft covers and custom deck pads available to prevent that problem. But, key number one preventative measure is deburring the inside of the box at the deck after sanding the neck down.
…Pools of laminating resin??? thtas just adding weight and they roll out really fast…
What does “rolling out” mean?
I heard from a reputable glasser that there was little or no difference in the amount of resin Speeeds use compared to Red X. And also that the craze of glassons being SO much lighter than removables was not true at all.
I like many of the systems and all seem to have strong and weak points. We’ve used them all.
We use O’Fish’l most, which no one seems to be talking about here. Strong (second to Red X) light weight, fits in thin tails, easiest to install for the manufacturer (same as Futures), decent fins in plastic or carbon, and I can get custom fins from Chuck Ames (True Ames Fins). They are the easiest to install for point of sale as well (clip in). I know this reads like I’m working for them but I don’t. Just use em.
Futures are also very good and I like Red X as well. LocBox is also a good system. Something not discussed here much (and this is really suprising) is performance. A full base system that is secured solidly gives better performance. All the systems have this trait accept for FCS which is a tabbed system. Tabbed fins flex on turns which robs you of drive. They also break way too easy. Maybe folks out there think that fins should break but if the link (the box) is strong, then there is nothing wrong with a strong fin. In the years we’ve been using O’Fish’L, since their retool, I’ve only had one box come back broken or even broken out. That’s out of thousands. And I’ve never had or seen a broken fin. My dealer in SC used to tell me how much he LOVED FCS. “I make sooo much money on those repairs.”
The Edge system is quite good as well. I use them in most of my personal boards with a short O’Fish’L/FU box in the center. Adjusability in every way. Greatest travel set up you could ever think of.
On singles the O’Fish’L single box is the best for a FU style box. You can intall before or after glassing, it’s stronger than the original, you don’t need to tape anything off and if you want to cap the box, after sanding, you have a nice collor around the channel so you won’t rip off the cap.
The weights of most of the attachment methods vary and are comparable. The benifit of glassing on fins in superlight glass jobs is due to monocoque construction. The are no hard points. Everything flexes together. That’s why there are so many glass ons being done lately. Everything has it’s compromises and each design has it’s strengths. We focused on effieciently transfering torque from the tip of the fin through the entire tail of the board. That was our focus. The other systems each have their own focuses.
FCS are a pain in the butt when you take the fins out, my fins were real tight and did not come out easily after undoing that little alan screw(i know, sand them)…so then comes the temptation of wiggle the fin back and forth, and because the FCS plug is so small the corners of the fin dig in to the glass…neat!! So, thats why i think most other systems have a leg up on FCS, changing fins does not cause cracks in the glass.
with fin solutions the you can upsell the customer any of the great range of foils that fcs have!
what most have failed to mention is the strength of each system relys on correct fitting procedures,(you would agree tom). who uses GP resin or epoxy to fit thier fins? who leaves them a minimum of 6 hours before sanding. over the last 10 years ive seen lots of repairs and made lots of boards, fitted a lot of fins my self and tuaght many staff to fit them. i find that the mass producing factories plugs/boxes come out very easy. some of the smaller custom oriented factorys rarely come out. when big accidents happen, small damage is good so fcs, finsolutions are good for that. in all most will do a good job of driving and holding your board thru turns and tubes…
Howzit feraldave, I was talking to the Hawaii FCS rep just this morning. There are changes coming from FCS, they took on some heavy money investors recently who don't surf and they are causing some problems since they are clueless about surfing. Well they now want out and one of the original owners is talking with some major surf industry people about buying in. Future has also approached FCS about a merger, not a buy out,but that's up in the air at this time. You really need to see the FCS video "DRIVE" to see how the new fin templates are working even though they aren't readally available just yet. I'll be receiving some promo fiberglass fins from them in the next day or two and have a few guys I'm going to let try them out so I can get some feedback. I sent your web site an e-mail concerning info on the fin solution system but never got a reply. It seems like a good system but need to know about availability for manufacturers in Hawaii. Aloha, Kokua
H.S. - I have to agree w/ you. I’ve never had a problem w/ RedX either. I like the fins, strength and adjustability. I have seen the blowouts, but have no idea how they happened. It very well could have been a non surfing injury, for sure.
The question struck me about an easier failing system being easier to replace vs. a bigger blowout and harder repair. Sounds kind of dumb, doesn’t it?
Tom - Thanks for the explanation - Your companies focus has great merits
Kokua,
Where did you hear that from? An FCS rep?
FCS actually started that rumor to help bring attention to them selves
FCS is in an odd time right now they just sent reps all over to glass shops trying to get business back that thye have lost.
FUTURES is to strong to merge with FCS it would be a losing deal for them, Futures is growing so fast its unreal. FCS is left clammoring to try to earn its share of the market back, what came free to them 5 years ago they now have to work for.
Theres no validity to an FCS or Futures anything. Theres no benefit to either party.
Futures just moved into a space id say 4-5 times what they were in due to such a heavy influx in orders. If they were trying to partner with FCS or anyone for that matter they probably would have waited on that move. It wouldnt make any sense at all to go through all that to move again in a few months.
Greg---------- I read all these posts and was wondering the same thing. Why no mention of O’Fishl? I agree with Bert the install on FCS is a snap and that is why I really got into using them. I do like their variety of foils. I don’t think their failure rate is that bigga deal and they are an easy repair. I like O’fishl. They are just as easy to install as Future. I was a little nevrous about routing an unglassed blank the first few times. With a little extra care though it’s no problem. On Maui, Fiberglass Hawaii will loan you the jig and router if you buy the boxes from them. I get my FCS stuff from a middle man. I tried to buy a quanity from their guy on Oahu(the minimum order plus) and instead of an order form/pricelist he sent me a credit app. I am a legitimate business with a GE#, but he acted like he didn’t need the order. So I started using Ofishl and futures. FCS is too pricey anyway. Easy install though. McDing
A busted plug may be no big deal to a shaper or glasser, but to a customer it means
taking your board to a ding repair guy
shelling out a lot of money
waiting a few weeks
That is why it matters - it matters to the customer. If you work out the cost-benefit and keep the customer in mind, minimizing failures is the best policy - even if it is a colossal failure, the customer still loses their board for the same length of time.
Howzit F1surf, Unlike the FCS reps that you mainland guys have and seem to complain about, we are lucky that we have really good reps here in Hawaii. I have a really good business relationship with our reps and if FCS started the rumor it probably came from Austrailia and the Hi reps don’t know that the Aust. guys started it, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done it. Now for the record, where do you get your info. The best rumor I liked was the Brewer rep who said Dick didn’t use ghost shapers and yet one of my shapers ghost shapes Brewers almost ever day. Remember FCS still has the largest market share for fin systems and they get enough attention, good or bad. I’ve heard some real horror stories about the FCS reps in Cal and don’t blame you guys for complaining about them. In my shop I install what ever system the customer wants and most ask for FCS first, then EDGE FIN system, and third is Futures. As more and more systems hit the market the competition gets more intense and as some gain in the market some have to lose but if I had a system out there that has approx. 70% of the market I think I would be OK with that. They have a bunch of new reps these days and the fact that they are going around to the glassing shops is what a good rep should do. If I had a business with reps that didn’t do their job they wouldn’t have a job with me. Another thing is why does Future make fins that fit FCS systems, could be they know FCS isn’t going to disappear from the market so they might as well make some extra money by making fins that fit the system, nothing wrong with that. Installation is the key,the best system isn’t worth dog s#*t if not properly installed, in fact I’m dealing with an improperly installed Future system right now ( the shaper set them way to deep) am going to have to rout through the bottom of the board just to get to the box after it’s sanded(not fun). As I’ve said many times there’s no bad systems just bad installations. Maybe Future’s move to a such an increased sq. footage space is in fact a step towards a merger, anything is possible these days. It really doesn’t matter to me WHO’S number 1. Aloha, Kokua
Howzit Outofsites, those tight fins are caused when the installer doesn’t tighten down the jigs when installing or they take the jigs out before the resin cools. I know a couple of glassers who would pull the jigs out to soon just to make it a quick install. When the customer told the glasser to try putting in the fins and he couldn’t, they learned a lesson trying shortcuts isn’t the best approach. I install in the evening and pull the jigs the next morning, no tight plugs here. As for the fins digging into the bottom ,just don’t tighten them so much,the instructions tell us to just cinch them down not crankum. Aloha, kokua